Believe and Youre There, vol. 6: When Ammon Was a Missionary

Agree with you mate.

1. Teen Fiction.
2. Amon Tobin.
3. Your Lottery Ticket!

In Whosampled artists can control our submissions not our comments, but mods can remove too. It's your personal decision publish the tracks that were removed or other issues. On the other hand good for Amon Tobin and Ninja Tune, other artists protect their pages, simply. Blackcurrant- But when people can talk about them on other sites or even in the forums on this site, or in the comments section, as we're doing now it kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? Well, artists don't want to get sued because if you publish something in this site everybody can watch it.

Realize that some samples are not credited by most producers ;. You can still see deleted samples using Wayback Machine on archive. I'm a little confused here. Why do they want them taken down? What copyright thing do they have against their own sample-based music? Some samples, as you say, were removed by the site after a request from Ninja Tune. I remember the original Nova sampled song was featured a 60's movie. I remember it playing, a plane flies over cocovado I know the samples from Nova and Toys are somewhere in my library, gotta dig a little bit!

Yeah I am but I don't have the power to approve previously rejected submissions, only a few mods the ones that reply to all of the support emails have that power. It's still worth a try! Probably because the artist wanted it removed I guess Camo You can always contact support and ask them why the specific sample was rejected, and they'll be happy to take a second look at it.

OK I just tried to submit the Natureland sample but it got immediately rejected for some reasons I know the original samples from Toys, Natureland and Nova I will try to add them when I have some times. I tried to submit it but it was declined for some reason. It actually was listed here but due to e-mail from his label admins had to remove it and some others. But you still can find it on archive.

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I've been curious about "Natureland" for a while and was a little surprised that it's not listed on here. Such a beautiful song I'm curious about the songs that he manipulated to create it. Bossa Nova, cool jazz, i don't know. Does anybody know what song he's sampling in the beginning of the song Always? Like Regular Chickens samples the movie Eraserhead.

Like Regular Chickens- http: Agreed on the "Battery" samples. Doubt we'll ever find them, but it sounds like he layered some strings with Hindi vocals from some Bollywood soundtrack and filtered them together to make that whining ghost cry What are the samples on the Permutations track "Bridge"? If any of you guys can find stuff in "Theme From Battery" from the Chaos Theory soundtrack, I'd be eternally indebted.

Keeping the first law and violating the second leads to the blessed damnation of remaining forever in the presence of God as sinless but undeveloped spirit children, never able to be ourselves or know ourselves because the full exercise of our agency is there not possible. He [Page ] alone is able to come to earth, face the full spectrum of temptations and moral choices and yet remain completely pure. However, He does not take the easy path back to God that is available to Him. Like Ammon 2 at Sebus—but on an infinitely grander scale—He condescends to join us ordinary human beings in suffering.

In the hell our sins have created for Him and us, He bears the brunt of our eternal damnation. In doing so, like Ammon 2 —-but on an infinite scale—He opens a path for us to escape our eternal doom. Out of our despair, we may be born again as sanctified souls if we exercise faith in Him, then with broken heart and contrite spirit hear and obey His commands. Drawing discipline and courage from the enabling power of His Atonement, we may join Him in gathering the scattered of the flock, then in purity follow Him as he humbly leads us back into the presence of His and our Lord.

These stories have depth. Though each contains elements that mark it as a good adventure tale, neither Ammon narrative may be properly appreciated if attention is focused primarily on plot. These concrete accounts of human doom and deliverance testify of Christ. Pervasive parallels signify their transcendence of history, the primacy of their allegorical witness that Jesus is the Christ.

Apologetics and hermeneutics, defending and understanding, are the two great tasks the Book of Mormon poses for faithful scholars. Latter-day Saint scholars can more fully accomplish both tasks if they are attentive to the fact that the people who inhabit the Book of Mormon have lives that continue off stage. The necessary brevity of the Book of Mormon means that most details of most lives will be present in the text—if present at all—only by implication.

If the Book of Mormon is an authentic historical text, apparently random details should prove to be interconnected when the text is read closely. In this article, I have attempted to show that such interconnections are ubiquitous. Like the authors of the Old Testament, they have a literary sensibility. That which is implicit generally converges with, reinforces, and sometimes makes more profound the witness of Jesus Christ that is the dominant theme of the Book of Mormon.

Peter Eubanks, Brant Gardner, Grant Hardy, and two reviewers at Interpreter read and helpfully commented on an a previous draft of this article. See Deborah Brandt, Literacy as Involvement: Southern Illinois University Press, on the challenges and mutual obligations writers and readers face as they co-create meaning for a text. For an excellent discussion of the relevant issues, see, Brant A. Malina and Richard L. University of California Press, for a discussion of structural corroboration.

This idea seems to have first been suggested by John A. Ricks and William J. Gerald Bradford and Alison V. FARMS, , —97, Greg Kofford Books, , 3: Brough and Mwangi S. It is linked, D. John Butler shows, to the middle room, the Hekal, of the three room ancient temple. Bookcraft, , Mosiah 2 is the politically and religiously legitimate figure who links the main narrative in the land of Zarahemla with both divergent narratives set in the land of Nephi.

He also establishes the political norms against which the revanchist Mulekites wrongly rebel. So the cult of Ammon was surely well known to the migrating Mulekites who may, therefore, have used Ammon as one of the names of God, a fact that would be known to Mormon if true. Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, , While this account of Aaron making his first missionary stop in the city of Jerusalem and there addressing the Amalekites fits with the supposition that the Amalekites are the dissident Mulekite king-men elsewhere called Amlicites, it is also the only major piece of evidence that Amlicites and Amalekites may not be the same people.

Amlici does not raise his army against Alma 2 until the fifth year of the reign of judges Alma 2: How then can Amlicites be builders of Jerusalem, a city that is already built when Aaron arrives? Words of Mormon 1: So dissenting Mulekites have been living in both locations before and after the inauguration of the reign of the judges. The fact that the uprising of the Amlicites in the land of Zarahemla was coordinated with an attack from the land of Nephi Alma 2: Relatedly, it is possible that the leader Amlici takes his name from the people he leads and who preexist him rather than the other way around.

The next leader of the kingmen insurgency, Amalickiah , has a remarkably similar name, again assuming an accent on the first syllable. Amalickiah may imply son of Amlici Amliki as Moronihah is the son of Moroni. Finally, it is not entirely clear at what point in their year mission Aaron undertook his mission to Jerusalem.

That Ammonihah is a Mulekite city is indicated by its name, its religion Nehorite which links it with the Mulekite dissenters, and by the necessity Amulek feels to tell Alma 2 that he is a Nephite when he first meets him Alma 8: If Ammonihah were a predominantly Nephite city, that declaration of lineage would have been unnecessary. Both sets of missionaries hope to foster peace with actual or potential enemies by inducing those enemies to embrace the gospel. In both cases, the missionaries have considerable success, and many of the people they preach adopt Nephite ideology and move to the Nephite land of Jershon.

But in both cases, this success becomes the immediate cause of a bitter, destructive war as the remaining Lamanites and Zoramites view the conversions and departures as a major threat to their ideology and power. Deseret Book, , Givens, When Souls Had Wings: Oxford University Press, , 94, By rallying with broken heart and contrite spirit to the Savior who has joined us in our suffering for sin, by drawing the strength from Him to humbly keep His commands, we are reborn as sinless sons and daughters of Christ who again feel nothing but joy in the presence of God.

God will care—and we will care—about what we are, not about what we have been. Here are some of my thoughts on the political situation with the Lamanites at the time of Ammon and Lamoni. The Lamanites had a king that was called Laman at the time of Zeniff Mosiah 9: If we assume that the Lamanite king was always called Laman as the Nephite king was always called Nephi Jacob 1: If this is the case then the true descendants of Laman who had the right to the ruler ship had been dispossessed of their rights to the government.

The true bloodline Lamanites were probably closely associated with the royal household but had been put in a subordinate role, as they were close to the affairs of the court Alma They were secretly trying to undermine the Ishmaelite ruler Lamoni by stealing his flocks and harassing his servants. The unconverted Lamanites along with the Amalekites attempted to overthrow the righteous king Anti-Lehi-Nephi by military means Alma The record does not say who became the next king of the Lamanites but it was likely the military commander of their armies.

A short time later Amalickiah dissented over to the Lamanites and convinced the king of the Lamanites to fight against the Nephites again, but many of his people refused to go to battle Alma The angry king put Amalickiah in charge of his army and Amalickiah hatched up a plan to dethrone the king of the Lamanites Alma He did this by deceiving Lehonti, the chief commander of the disobedient Lamanite army, into appointing him as second in command to Lehonti and the armies would be combined into one Alma The custom was to appoint the second commander as chief commander if the chief commander was killed Alma Amalickiah had Lehonti killed and thus became the chief commander of the army; he then returned to the king of the Lamanites and had him killed as well and then set himself up as the new king of the Lamanites Alma He married the queen and had the support of the people Alma The right to rule among the Lamanites was no longer determined by birthright but by military power.

With the death of king Amalickiah his brother Ammoron, who was probably the chief commander of the Lamanite army, was appointed as the new king Alma Patrilineal descent appears to have been Nephite practice since Nephi was also married to a daughter of Ishmael but his descendants were known as Nephites. So your conjecture about a change in the royal line seems plausible. Great article and comments. Do you have a citation for the Gileadi interpretation? That was the supposition in the article.

Avraham Gileadi, The Last Days: Types and Shadows… Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, p. Thanks again for such a great piece. I thoroughly enjoyed your article and found it fascinating. What a wealth of information is the Book of Mormon when you take the time… thanks again. I had long believed that the Amlicites and the Amalekites were the same people and was gratified to see others make that connection recently. But, there is an issue about this that I have struggled with over the past decades.

The sons of Mosiah left before Mosiah died at least that is how I read Mosiah Aaron immediately went to the Jerusalem where he attempts to teach the Amalekites. In the fifth year of the reign of judges, Amlici begins his rebellion and when defeated his people move off to the Lamanites. It would appear that the Amalekites had already come under the jurisdiction of the High King of the Lamanites well before Amlici tried to take over Zarahemla. The year mission to the Lamanites seems to take only a few months in the narrative.

Trying to reconstruct the timelines of Alma to Alma 16 on the one hand and the sons of Mosiah on the other is kind of hard—the attack on Ammonihah being a point of correlation. Alma had done quite a bit by that time. Amlicites near Zarahemla and Amalekites near Nephi apparently being the same people, may have greatly feared Alma at Zarahemla and the high king in Nephi becoming allies.

I had never put that together, but it makes sense. Now, if Benjamin had married a daughter of Zarahemla, that would make Mosiah2 a grandson of Zarahemla and likely a cousin of Ammon1—not just his wife, but himself. That Mosiah1 would become king of the combined people is something worth thinking about.

I have often heard that the smaller group takes the leadership because of some superior technology or something. Clearly, the city of Zarahemla is much stronger than the city of Nephi at the time. In perhaps years, 3 kings led their people from the city of Nephi to the city of Zarahemla escaping significant pressure on them and gaining refuge around Zarahemla. Not long after the first group arrived, some part of that group presumably with additions from the Mulekites went back to Nephi and had the strength to secure control of the city by negotiation and that after the first attempt had resulted in near destruction of the group because of an inability to decide between destroying the Lamanites in Nephi or simply asking them to give the land to them—either way both the groups for which Zeniff was a spy and the second group that Zeniff led were undoubtedly stronger than what Mosiah1 had before leaving Nephi or the Lamanites that then occupied Nephi.

I use these are arguments that Zarahemla was stronger than Nephi. Mosiah1 had the scriptures—something that would have been very important to the Mulekites. But, the most logical answer in my mind has to do with intermarriage between the two dynastic lines. Not only could Benjamin have married a Mulekite princess, it is possible that Mosiah1 did as well, perhaps marrying a daughter or sister of Zarahemla.

In fact, that the throne transferred from Zarahemla to Mosiah1—given any Mulekite belief in the Davidic throne that would not pass out of their line—a Mosiah1 married to a daughter of Zarahemla seems plausible to have allowed Mosiah1 to ascend the throne. I loved the interpretation of the events at the Waters of Sebus and the plausible backstory, which makes perhaps sense.

I had always wondered why Lamoni—who was considering executing Ammon2 in one moment suddenly offers him his daughter when he announced he wanted to stay in Ishmael. Mormon clearly left out any mention that Ammon2 indicted that he was a prince, but that is exactly the kind of disclosure that could have led to such an offer of marriage into the Lamanite kingly line. It does make the back story as told here to be very plausible. A little later, we have another Nephite dissenter group—the Zoramites. These claimed descent from Zoram. I have wondered how they ended up where they were.

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Did their ancestors travel with Mosiah1 from Nephi to Zarahemla or did they leave Nephi independently —perhaps some point before Mosiah1. I have yet to detect any clue about how the Zoramites ended up were they were when Alma, Ammon, and others went to preach to them. Later Ammoron stated he was a Zoramite who became a Lamanite. Amalekiah seems to have been somewhat of a parallel to Amlici—he was in a group that apparently had ties to both the Nephites in Zarahemla and the Lamanites in Nephi. And he attempted to establish himself as a king in Zarahemla and when that failed he was able to become the Lamanite high king.

Zoramites presumably were not Mulekites, but it appears that the Zoramites behaved like the people of Amlici before them, so not all the kingmen threatening the reign of judges were Mulekites. We do know that the kingmen in the days of Pahoran and Moroni were also in league with the Lamanites, but we know nothing of their ethnic makeup. Clearly patterns of conflicting allegiances existed and among more than one group. You make some interesting points. I made this point in the original draft of the paper but the reviewers had me take it out to reduce the length.

The greatest technological development of all time is writing. The Brass Plates explain this difference between the two groups. In that difficult first generation following the migration, the Nephites had the plates so preserved the ability to read and write, and preserved their knowledge of their original language and culture. Lacking something important to read or to use as a teaching tool, the Mulekites ceased to be literate after their first generation.

Writing like any other technology can be lost in one generation if neglected. But not just that. The Brass Plates were a part of the package. The Nephites had preserved the heritage and language they shared with the Mulekites because they had a written record. Using the plates, the Nephites could reveal to the Mulekites an impressive past that would have been in substantial measure lost to them before the arrival of Mosiah1. The Nephites could reveal that their language was closer than the Mulekites language to the Hebrew the two peoples shared as a common language heritage.

So the Mulekites learned and used the language of the Nephites, a clear reflection of their sense that, owing to the Brass Plates, the Nephite culture was more authentic and valid than their own. In Omni 19, Mosiah1 is named king immediately following the mention of the plates and the change in language. It is clearly implied that the Brass Plates and associated prestige culture were what caused Zarahemla to select Mosiah1 as his successor.

This idea is strongly backed up in Mosiah 1: The clear implication is that the plates and what they taught are the base of the political power Benjamin will now pass on to Mosiah2. The timing issues you raise are important. I attempted to address them in Footnote I also discuss there the connection between Amlici and Amalekiah which seems to parallel linguistically the connection between Moroni and Moronihah. Thanks for providing a great comment on the article.

Also, thank you for referring me to your footnotes. A wealth of interesting information and conjecture resides in them. I had listened to the podcast while commuting to work and then went back and listened to it again because the ideas you raised in the article were fascinating. I should have looked in your footnotes before posting; I might have adjusted my initial comments if I had done so. If he had married into the royal family, that would have strengthened his right to rule that came. Your point about ability to read and having the scriptures is the point I have usually heard trying to explain why Mosiah1 was able to become king over the combined peoples.

That also means that Mosiah1 brought direct evidence that only the descendents of King David should be on the throne and thus in some ways this contribution to the combined people perhaps would have made it less likely for Mosiah1 to have become king. You make some good points. Such a marriage would certainly have strengthened his claim. And they almost certainly were read that way once the Mulekites learned to read and became more familiar with their content.

As I note in the paper, the book of Alma opens with the thesis that laws established by Mosiah2 are the only legitimate foundation for governance of the people who live in Zarahemla. But clearly implied is a powerful, unstated antithesis of that thesis: So the Brass Plates were a double edged sword politically. It is clear from the opening of Mosiah that they were the most important pillar supporting the dynasty of Mosiah1. But it is also quite clear in the book of Alma that they became the most important pillar undergirding the attempt of the Kingmen to reclaim a throne that they viewed as being theirs by right.

Initially, the mere possession of the plates was the most important political fact. Later, the content of the plates became a critically important political fact. As to above comment by Calvin D Tolman: I am glad that there are people like all of you that understand what is being said, going on, etc. I am studying the Scriptures again and these articles help. One day I hope to not need anything to help me understand what I am reading when it comes to the Scriptures. I will never have the knowledge all of you have but I am working on gaining some knowledge. The insights although speculative are some of my favorite types of insights.

I never would have thought of the correlations between the two Ammons in the Book of Mormon but it does make sense. I applaud you and your efforts! Thanks for an insightful article. I had not previously considered how the two Ammons could be connected in terms of familial relationship. Alma is hanging out with the sons of Mosiah, and probably knows their Uncle Helaman. In context of this article, I wonder what implications this admittedly speculative possibility would have for Alma. Your speculation on Helaman the uncle is very interesting and quite plausible.

The probability that Alma knew uncle Helaman is very high, and both being part of an elite political circle, a marriage of the kind you propose is quite possible. Indeed, the fact that Alma becomes Chief Judge substantially increases the probability that the speculation is true. And her being so would have helped Alma the politician meet the challenges he faced, though he himself was pure Nephite which was most likely a big problem, his wife notwithstanding, as discussed in the article.

I think it virtually certain that the Alma line did at some point intermarry with prominent Mulekites because they become one of the two most prominent political families in the realm with multiple chief judges after Alma. They could hardly have achieved that prominence without a measure of ethnic appeal to the Mulekite part of the population.

The subsequent appointments of Helaman and Nephi must reflect the political prominence of the family itself and probably, as you speculate, marital and blood relationships with the Mulekites. In the article I confidently assert that Mosiah would have married a Mulekite descendant of Zarahemla. To a modern reader, this claim may seem speculative. Readers may see it as speculative because we moderns think personal preference dictates the choice of a marriage partner.

And personal preference is fickle.

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But as Adam S. It organized the production and distribution of goods and people. It set up political, economic, and military alliances…. Rather, marriage served as a social, political, and economic hub for the production of goods and the distribution of social roles. But marriage was not fundamentally about love. Miller further explores this traditional view of marriage and explains how the modern emphasis on personal preference has destabilized marriage. They would have understood the primacy of the social role of marriage, especially, the marriage of a prospective king.

Being responsible men, they would have arranged for a marriage that would bind the Nephites to the Mulekites and visa versa. If I had seen it before submitting the article, I would have incorporated this citation in the footnotes. Better late, and here, than never. What a fascinating article. But I wonder if there might be more to the conflict than just competition between the Nephite and Mulekite branches of government.

First, if I understand correctly Hugh Nibley suggested that the people of Zarahemla included a Jaredite remnant, and if so, another layer of assumed prestige could have been part of Mulekite claims. The Jaredites had up to that point been the most impressive culture in the area, and they and their history were certainly a matter of interest to the larger Nephite group.

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The Nephites fought to the bitter end to keep the lands of the Jaredites as theirs, against both internal dissidents and external antagonists trying to take them away from them. So it is not hard to imagine the people of Zarahemla claiming continuity with the Jaredites such that the Amalekites could point to the glory of their forebears as another indication of their assumed right to preeminence.

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By the way, it is interesting to note that, considering the possibility that the Jaredites correlate with the Olmec culture, Mesoamerican rulers do seem to have looked to the lost glory of the Olmecs and later to that of their geographical neighbor Teotihuacan for that same sort of preeminence. A second point of contention would have been religion.

It has been pointed out elsewhere that the general religion of the Jaredites them again was not overtly Christian, and the people of Zarahemla had centuries to drift off into who knows where before joining with the Nephites. Religious differences may have been much greater than we imagine, and I wonder if the order of the Nehors was part of an attempted return to religious forms existing prior to the alliance. In that case it would have constituted a rebellion against the religious innovations as they could have been seen imposed by the Nephite kings.

Both of these factors, the force of the memory of another ruling tradition with vast cultural weight among the majority of the populace and of long-standing cultural and religious norms would have made it very difficult for the Nephite kings and judges to hold it all together. It is no surprise that they ultimately failed to do so. Your email address will not be published. All comments are moderated to ensure respectful discourse. It is assumed that it is possible to disagree agreeably and intelligently and comments that intend to increase overall understanding are particularly encouraged.

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