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The Drumbeat of Jimmy Sands

Falkland Islands War, -- Fiction. Ireland -- Politics and government -- -- Fiction. View online Borrow Buy Freely available Show 0 more links Set up My libraries How do I set up "My libraries"? These 5 locations in All: Hurstville City Library Museum Gallery. Open to the public ; held Book English Redland Libraries. Open to the public Book English Show 0 more libraries This single location in Australian Capital Territory: Open to the public ; held Book English Show 0 more libraries This single location in New South Wales: These 2 locations in Queensland: This single location in Victoria: None of your libraries hold this item.

Found at these bookshops Searching - please wait We were unable to find this edition in any bookshop we are able to search. These online bookshops told us they have this item: Iran contra is discussed above.

Murray Davies - Wikipedia

Nobody doesn't make some mistakes, especially a president. On the other hand you are Very wrong on other issues. Read the book and then start questioning what other blatant lies you have been told. What if Ronald Reagan turned out to be really a brilliant, clever, thoughtful man? What other things that you absolutely know to be true could be subject to question if that proved to be true? If you read it ask yourself that question.

Did you even read your own link? The Snopes page says that the IQ ranking of presidents with the two Bushes and Reagan at the bottom is a hoax. I guess it is extremely efficient to discredit your own point so that no one else has to, but it doesn't make you look too smart.

The Iran—Contra affair Persian: It began as an operation to improve U. The Iranian recipients promised to do everything in their power to achieve the release of six U. I read the first article quoted today top in Uk's Guardian newspaper this morning. This is the second of Ashley Seager's very recent PO articles.

He is a well-respected member of Guardian's economics team. His article is a fair account of PO from a British perspective, including absence of government plans. The article begins to provide some main-stream visibility at least. He sure isn't holding any punches saying that our future looks like the movie Mad Max. For those that haven't shut off their minds to this subject, that visual could really motivate readers.

I think the msm are gradually beginning to wake up to the reality of the oil situation-the articles that place the blame for high prices on speculators are not nearly so numerous as they used to be-and the coverage of the peak oil community while still grudging,niggardly, and condescending is growing-You can actually find names such as "Nate Hagens" in the NYT and organizations such as TOD mentioned. Not so long ago they apparently had a defacto policy of pretending such people and organizations didn't really exist-that the peak oil community existed only as a bunch of deluded bloggers without leaders.

Change in our society has a way of starting slow and it usually takes a long time for a critical mass of people to embrace a new way of thinking or a new social movement-but when a critical mass is reached,sometimes change comes on in very short order,historically speaking. Examples include women's educational opportunities, gay rights, the organic foods movement and popular support for renewable energy-although this support is not enough yet to to overcome the status quo and the entrenched energy industry. So now some suburbanite who is reading the NYT can type "Nate Hagens" or "The Oil Drum"into his search engine in about a second and open up a whole new world if she has never given peak oil more than a passing thought.

The very fact that the name is actually in the paper is a significant change and in my opinion may be compared to the relative trickle of water that is running off the Green land icecap-I think we have good reason to expect to see more and more coverage and ice water!

I believe he is right -once the coverage dam breaks and one or two big players start running regular pieces there may well be a flood of coverage. You would think that they might have noticed that in "Mad Max", remarkably few newspapers were being sold and read. That would tend to have disturbing implications for the future cash flow. It's important to remember that newspaper's content's job is not to present a coherent worldview but to provoke whatever emotions in the reader will induce them to buy tomorrow's edition. For some people that's "bad news" they can use to feel "the world's going to hell in a handbasket"; the reason to censor news isn't because it's bad but because the reader might not appreciate it, whether it's good or bad.

For example, here you get details of a complete contradiction between two different "local editions" of a newspaper based on what the readers will agree with. It's only suprising if you believe there's some reason for a newspaper's content to actually have a coherent view.

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The following remarks were apparently made by John Swinton in , then the preeminent New York journalist, probably one night in during that same year. Swinton was the guest of honour at a banquet given him by the leaders of his craft. Someone who knew neither the press nor Swinton offered a toast to the independent press. Swinton outraged his colleagues by replying:. You know it and I know it. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job.

If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men.

We are intellectual prostitutes. Labor's Untold Story, by Richard O. Boyer and Herbert M. I found this recently, and it is quite relevant here: And I suggest run for the hills: Or maybe a mountain has lost its top. For a dyslexic, memmel sure has a way with words. A national challenge in a changing world. He puts an upbeat positive spin on most stuff but does actually point out a potentially bad situation. He gives Gordon an explanation of Peak Oil if he cares to read it, but he thinks gas is even more of a problem!

He concludes that energy independence for the UK is unachievable and recommends that Norway, Qatar and Saudi Arabia be prioritised as the most significant relationships for our energy security - too bad he doesn't seem to mention ELM! Looks like sometime in the next 48 hours, the YOY price for gas will be positive.

This might be interesting for folks here. A well known political scientist uses game theory to predict there never be a deal on climate change:. Why Copenhagen will be a bust, and other prophecies from the foreign-policy world's leading predictioneer. Want to know what's going to happen with climate change? Is the world going to come together this December at the Copenhagen summit, or at some future date, and regulate away enough of the greenhouse gases that are heating up the planet to warm Al Gore's heart?

I'm no climate scientist, but I've done my own calculations, and I can tell you the answer: Despite the hoopla, the U. Here's what will happen instead: Over the next several decades, world leaders will embrace tougher emissions standards than those proposed-and mostly ignored-in the Kyoto Protocol. But real support for tougher regulations will fall. By midcentury, the mandatory emissions standards in place will be well below those set at Kyoto, a far cry from the targets for carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases set to be discussed by world leaders in Copenhagen.

And by the time rolls around, the political will for tougher regulations will have dried up almost completely. The reasons are many, but come down to this: Today's emerging powerhouses like Brazil, India, and China simply won't stand for serious curbs on their emissions, and the pro-regulation crowd in the United States and Europe won't be strong enough to force their hands. But will you get localized carbon markets of the type we see at work in the EU or some global scheme? My guess, and BDM's too, is that you'll never see a global carbon market - too many localized vested interests sabotaging efforts to organize a response one level up What will happen is that AGW will become a football for domestic, protectionist interests with ecological concerns a second, distant concern.

So, dirty, but expensive, carbon emitters in the rich world will argue that cheaper, but marginally dirtier, carbon emitters in the poor world should have tariffs placed on their exports. What you'll get will be the worst of both worlds - you'll still have dirty, expensive carbon emitters in the rich world and now poor countries will get even poorer because their marginally dirtier goods are being discriminated against by richer countries.

In fact, because you've cut off competition from abroad, those dirty emitters in the rich world can now afford to emit even more emissions even if you have something like a carbon tax or cap and trade because you've given them monopoly profits by eliminating their foreign competitors. Thanks for the link. De Mesquita is an interesting fella.

Silent Hunter 5 - Battle of the Atlantic - Operation Drumbeat!

I'm not quite to the point of putting money on his prognostications, but they make interesting reading nevertheless. You can dig up a not very enlightening talk on TED. The most interesting thing I've found on this guy so far is this: So how might we solve global warming and make the world in years look attractive to our future selves? New technologies will solve the problem for us. There is an equilibrium at which enough global warming -- a very modest amount more than we may already have, probably enough to be here in 50 to years -- will create enough additional sunshine in cold places, enough additional rain in dry places, enough additional wind in still places, and, most importantly, enough additional incentives for humankind that solar panels, hydroelectricity, windmills, and as yet undiscovered technologies will be good and cheap enough to replace fossil fuels.

We have already warmed enough for there to be all kinds of interesting research going on, but today such pursuits take more sacrifice than most people seem willing to make. Tomorrow that might not be true, and at that point, I doubt it'll be too late. And, looking out years, we'll probably have figured out how to beam ourselves to distant planets where we can start all over, warming our solar system, our galaxy, and beyond with abandon. His prediction for the next years see FP I concede that there's some interesting "game theory" modelling My take is this: The effects of Climate Change will be so pronounced by the years he mentions that one would have to be a rock, literally, to not be scared poopless.

The predictioneer understands climate issues not at all, apparently. Action will happen far, far earlier. Where I agree is that it is extremely likely to be too little,too late. If the US and Europe is so adamant about cutting their emissions why this: Solar hot water capacity added worldwide And if the US and Europe is so adamant about cutting their emissions why does China currently install more wind power? Are the Chinese and Brazilians simply wealthier than Americans that they can afford all this expensive cutting emission technology stuff? And why is China still producing several factors less CO2 per capita even-though it produces all the consumer goods for the US and Europe?

Should Americans have borrowed money from China such that Americans could also have built a couple of solar hot water heaters to reduce their dependence on fossil fuel imports? Oh, wait a minute, poor America has borrowed lots of money from wealthy China, but apparently did not choose to invest wisely And is the foreign-policy world's leading predictioneer just having fun blaming others for ones own shortcomings or is he simply happy to be that embarrassingly ignorant?

Solar hot water heaters to heat domestic water is one of the most efficient solar energy technologies available. The attempt to transition to cellulosic ethanol is lacking compared to the simplicity and higher yield of rooftop water heaters in the sun belt. With Washington you do not always get good decisions, you only get decisions. I don't know how I could then afford the city's property taxes, maybe they'll accept payment in apples and nuts. You could donate to a nature conservancy which is tax exempt in Michigan.

Don't know if they'd want it though. I'd try to somehow persuade the area's Arab minority to stage a nice little domestic insurgency right in the area in question, thus turning it into a war zone. Let the DOD handle the demolitions, they can do such a good job of it.

Afterwords, the area becomes eligible for all sort of government goodies - much more so than what they could get at present. As you add compost, the lead will be diluted -- just don't eat the dirt or have children play in it. At least that is the response I have developed. One section of the my urban garden tested at ppm of lead -- naturally you would expect ppm. I suppose I should go get a blood test done to see if my lead levels are elevated after eating quit a few root vegetables, spinach, and lettuce.

It's probably not a problem with the crops, just don't eat the soil. I live in an urban area, afew houses from a community garden and there were initially concerns with the lead as old buildings with lead paint had been demolished years ago at the site. Also, years of leaded gasoline have created elevated lead levels adjacent to all highways. If you are concerned, check with your state health department or cooperative extention service.

I think the bottom line with the local garden was that most of the lead in the soil gets bound up and unless there's a lot of acid rain or something like that, it's not a real problem. Six or eight inches of compost would be real good. Soil organic matter can help bind heavy metals such as lead though metals are still slowly available over time.

Also, note that soil pH can affect availability of heavy metals he higher the soil pH, the lower the solubility of the heavies, therefore judicious applications of lime can be helpful in ameliorating metals contaminated soils.


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Also, note that not all crops accumulate heavy metals at the same rate. This knowledge can work for you in a couple of ways. Firstly, you could concentrate on growing those crops which are less inclined to accumulate metals or which tend to accumulate them in non-edible portions of the plant. There's a lot of research out there there on remediation of metals contaminated soils.

Picking Up The Brass

Much good info is likely freely available on the web. Some folks have posted that Detroit may be a place to relocate postpeak, partially due to the abundance of cheap or abandoned homes and land for reclaiming. Unfortunately any home left unattended for a length of time here gets stripped and gutted. All metals, brick, glass, wood flooring etc. Up until WWII most homes were sort of like row houses with small yards and minimal space between, after WWII alot of homes were sided with asbestos which has its own disposal issues. Much of the industry here took place before enviornmental issues with toxics were acknowledged leaving former factory areas and assembly plants highly contaminated.

Some areas, such as Delray, had decades of toxins pour from the sky that have doubtlessly accumulated in the soil. My highschools' team bus was the first example I saw of acid rain waay back in , all horizontal surfaces had been stripped of paint and showed bare metal.

The swim team borrowed the pool at one of the schools there and the bus was parked outside once a week, for hours only during the swim season. The Rouge plant was a sight to behold with eyes bleary from the heavily chlorinated pool. The smokestacks belched many colors of flame and a gritty particulate that stuck to your skin. Oh to be young again! Are you in Detroit? I might get a slot on the agenda of the city's Green Task Force tomorrow. It is also well within the realm of possibility that a Black Swan the size of Rodan the Flying Reptile will swoop through the stock markets to breath fire on the computer terminals and melt the glorious rally of 09 away.

I am a believer in giant Black Swans on the horizon and Rodan may very well be applicable to the market. Lynford -- having just finished the "Black Swan" it's fresh on my mind. Taleb makes a great point: But there is one very clear course you can take regardless: IOW, don't have a big chunk of your money in the stock market. He actually mentions the very low risk and equally low return gov't securities. But, no, you won't lose your retirement nest egg either should the market flip. By definition, even if BS are not predictable, it doesn't mean you have to expose yourself to the possibiity. Taleb also makes the point that you can do the same with good Black Swans.

A few small investments in risky but potentially huge return investments isn't a bad thing. He considers combining such investments with very low risk investments a viable approach. Good Black Swans do occur. He considers the middle of the road approach to be dangerous: Thus taking moderate risks with attractive returns can often be the worse path to follow in his opinion. I'm hooked on Taleb for a number of reasons.

Not the least of which is his sarcastic and dismissive tone he takes at times. Suits my personality well, if you haven't noticed. I thought Fooled by Randomness was the far better of the two books, but partially because he comes off less sarcastic and dismissive. I've already order it and there you go bursting my bubble.

But thanks for the review anyway. Even as the cataclysmic events of last year fade into memory and most pundits are convinced that the government alone can push the country into prosperity, if it only wasn't for that pesky unemployment number that just refuses to cooperate, yet another comparison with the Great Depression emerges, one that shows that the current period is in fact even worse than what occurred in the years after And yet, the economic news seems to be getting better.

In absolute terms, the price is back to where it was in and now, we're in a major recession whereas 2 years ago we were not. I think it very likely that the US Economy will continue to contract while the overall global economy expands, paced by Asia and South America. Dave Cohen's recent analysis is excellent as it provides empirical data for predictions I made almost two-years ago and shows why things will worsen.

My prescription for solving the problem remains the same: Immediately cease spending monies on unproductive pursuits, like expanding the Empire and an unaffordable military, and start spending those monies on putting our unemployed masses to work building the alternative energy and transportation systems we'll require in the near future. These guys had the USA at 4 last year-quite the slide http: But achieving that level requires proper investment and management and will.

Such articles as this drive me nuts. Peak oil is decades away and the world can produce 45 million barrels per day more than it is now producing. That is an increase of over 50 percent. All that is needed is the proper investment, good management and will. Now we might expect this from some reporter for the NY Times or some other daily rag.

But the author of this piece is none other than Michael J. Economides , supposedly one of America's leading energy analysts. He kept saying that EIA data showed that Saudi production was up in and in , over , and he produced a chart showing higher production. One of the little oddities about the Peak Oil debate is that engineers, like Economides, tend to be optimists decades away , while geologists tend to be more pessimistic realistic , e. Mexico oil output slide ending: A dramatic slide in Mexico's oil production has come to an end and it can maintain output at 2.

Mexican crude output has plunged by nearly a quarter since peaking in , straining public finances and spurring bond rating agencies to warn the country's debt could be downgraded. However the government now believes the rate of decline at the giant Cantarell field has slowed and become more predictable.


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I don't trade futures but I have read that the way oil is actually priced in the current market has a lot to do with prices in the futures market. The actual spot market for physical delivery is somewhat thin and spread out and does not have enough volume to create reliable prices. Therefore, as circular as it seems, the price in the current market is often determined by the prices in the futures market.

That is the reason for higher current prices than the current fundamentals might support. This also makes sense from a logical and financial perspective because the "present value" of the future price of oil is higher when traders anticipate and price future higher prices. Canadian Oil Sands are huge polluters and land strippers and that is one reason I didn't invest in them. Penn West mentioned above is my largest personal investment by far I recommended it here at a much lower price and a leader in carbon sequestration although I make absolutely no guarantees to anyone of any kind about investment.

I've also seen publication which claim that oil sands production is no more carbon intensive than imported heavy oils from other regions. Do you have different data? They conserve land space by drilling horizontal wells off a single gravel pad they can go underground 2 miles or more horizontally with each well.

There, they are drilling vertical wells on 1-acre spacing, so the area looks like a gawdawful mess. The California politicians should pay more attention to what is happening in their own back yards but dealing with reality has never been one of their strong points. Forbes announces layoffs as the magazine joins other magazines and newspapers in succumbing to pressures from the Internet and declining advertising revenue due to the Great Recession:.

My thesis is that these media changes will have profound social consequences as some cling to old media and others embrace the Internet where the wide variety of messengers and messages leads to fragmentation and disorganization. For a while those using the old media will be less fragmented and more organized because of the finite number of messengers and messages.

But they will gradually be out numbered as younger people and even many seniors like myself give up on magazines, newspapers, TV and embrace the Internet. Society will lose cohesiveness and direction as internet users each live in a virtual world of their own creation communicating with other like minded users in an echo chamber.

Re Canada tar sands, be sure to check out Nate's post: I would not describe this as "Nate's post", and I don't think Nate would either. The introduction describes it as a guest post by Simon Dyer's from Pembina Institute. The post is very one sided, but at the end, the Pembina Institute comes out supporting more production of oil from the Oil Sands. Read the comments to the post --quite a few of the statement in the post are questionable at best. It's really creepy that we're destroying the earth to fill up our gas-tanks. Wasn't Saturday the 24th We're already at PPM and it's rising quick.

Mckibbon why he wasted his time trying to wake up more people to the consequences of rising Atmospheric carbon. Here is some news for Alberta. Carbon Trading schemes are going to be the order of the day after Copenhagen Yay! Carbon Capture and Storage is hypothetical wishing and hoping that we can keep up this high livin' for just a little while longer.

I suggest all supporters of The Tar Sands should be made to live in condominiums looking at those tailing ponds and environmental waste. Something of the sort happens all the time without making anyone do anything. For millennia, people who have had the opportunity have been moving from more pristine places - which are often unutterably boring on a day-in-and-day-out basis - to less pristine places, often against the strong wishes of the government of the day. Today, they're still moving as fast as they can, even where the less pristine places - namely the cities - are awful far beyond anything that can be grasped by most Westerners.

I wonder how many hamburgers we could pry from people's cold dead hands, at least one day a week? Here's something different for the Drumbeat. Autoweek columnist predicts the end of the Automobile Age. As expected the "you can have my car when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" crowd is out in force in the comments section.

Unlike Europe and Japan, we in the United States are still expanding into a frontier. Europe and Asia have reached the edges of their petri dishes. They have realized that everybody driving their own cars would be a mathematical and physical impossibility. You'd hit a traffic jam at the end of your driveway.

But we in America, our frontier is running out. Tract homes made a valiant effort to carpet the desert between L. Short of paving Nebraska and replacing the corn with stucco, we too may be reaching the edges of our frontier. It was a fun years, but now the party's over and it's time to try and live together peacefully, without road rage. That means cars are on the way out. Reply to the Governor,' November 11, You know, when it wasn't your neighbor's business as to why you worked far from home.

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A time when you were free to make choices that you were responsible and accountable for. Is the first guy for real? The second guy is at least right, we will always have individual transportation. That being said, we have always had individual transportation. Columnist Vaughn also writes: There are 12 million people living in Tokyo not far from where I sit right now From what I have seen of the city and of this part of the country, I cannot imagine all of those people driving individual cars on freeways and then trying to find somewhere to park them.

From what I've seen, I can't imagine it either. People will go to that much trouble and expense to have transportation that takes them where they need to travel, when they need to travel, as opposed to buses and trains set up for someone else's trips on someone else's schedule.

So I wouldn't get too delusional about peaceably extending the Tokyo model to North America, a vast expanse with but a few dozen square miles even approaching Tokyo's population density. Los Angeles is practically wilderness by comparison. Oh, and by the way, while bicycles are still somewhat common in Tokyo, use seems to have plummeted drastically - at a guess by a factor of five or even ten - over the last couple of decades. So I might not even get too delusional about extending the Tokyo model to present-day Tokyo itself Maybe Tokyo is the logical end of the "Green Economy" paradigm.

Expensive, high tech infrastructure combined with BAU growth lets a city grow to gargantuan proportions with relatively clean air and low per capita energy use Maybe Autoweek is just getting into the holiday spirit and feel the need to scare their readership with a spooky story. If switzerland, with the greatest public transportation system on the planet covering every last village into the alps, with enormous public support and matching public largesse for public transit, with almost punitive discouragement toward cars including simply not making enough parking available, by design, and letting prices rise to ration it , still drowns in car traffic, then while the gas is affordable, any other place can put the dreams of eliminating the cars back into fantasyland where they came from.

Now throw into the mix the reality of just about every other country in the world: Let this cook for a generation and you're about as deep into this trap as LA itself. For a brief while in the 70s and 80s, europe surfed over just the right part of the prosperity curve, while just enough people were coming into town from just enough of a basically late middle ages standard of living electricity didnt hit a lot of rural places until the 60s or 70s, and farming in many cases was done with animals until then it wasnt done at all huge agribisiness of NW europe is a different story , that people got by with no cars or tiny little fiat s , a lot of walking, tiny apartments, and generally a lower demand for quantity of material goods.

That era is preserved in lots of movies and modern nostalgic dreaming, but nowadays that very lifestyle is as much an expensive choice as the mythological brownstones off of central park is in new york. Yes, people still live in the old city centres in europe. Then millions more live in apartment projects and suburbs all around those cities, and they and their cars clog the maze of highways here too. It's nice to think that somewhere at least, people havent made the same dumb mistakes, but there are very real reasons of profit that people have been herded into those mistakes. Wheels Magazine Australia has had a long-running series on Oil for about two years now.

Surprisingly forward-thinking from a magazine dedicated to private transport it's main competitor, Motor, is fixated on the latest big-banger from Ford or Holden, however. The recent Internet chatter about cooling led NOAA's climate data center to re-examine its temperature data. It found no cooling trend. I was predicting to myself that could exceed -- nice to see it backed up by somebody who Gavin is learned on the subject.

Of the 10 hottest years recorded by NOAA, eight have occurred since , and after this year it will be nine because this year is on track to be the sixth-warmest on record. The current El Nino is forecast to get stronger, probably pushing global temperatures even higher next year, scientists say. NASA climate scientist Gavin Schmidt predicts may break a record, so a cooling trend "will be never talked about again. That's a tad optimistic. I suspect they'll still be pushing this 'cooling trend' when half of Texas is underwater and there are three successive sunny days in Wales.

AGW denialists are pretty reality-proof. October 25, DrumBeat Drumbeat: October 26, Posted by Leanan on October 26, - 9: October 26, PDF version comments. KLR on October 26, - 9: Leanan on October 26, - 9: KLR on October 26, - Leanan on October 26, - In both cases, the oil producers get their money. I was under the impression that price controls exacerbated the shortages in the s That may have been the case, but it was because we were an oil producer. You might examine their total oil production, consumption and net oil exports at the following website, from forward for China and from forward for Venezuela: FMagyar on October 26, - Geckolizard on October 26, - 9: The US gov't is about to max out its credit card.

BrianT on October 26, - BrianT on October 26, - 1: But ultimately that levels out by cutting into profits, where the elite take their cut. And the IRS won't go away. Employs too many and is a useful control on the population. Inflation is the usual way countries default - looks like it has to be Zimbabwean style though! WNC Observer on October 26, - 1: WNC Observer on October 26, - Geckolizard on October 26, - 1: That red stuff is government's untenable political promises.

BrianT on October 26, - 9: If true, he surely 'hid his light under a bushel'. I strongly suggest you start with the Reagan book below which will open up your mind. Fox News is OK On February 14, a Florida Appeals court ruled there is absolutely nothing illegal about lying, concealing or distorting information by a major press organization. I thought they were only lying outright on their editorial shows. Leanan on October 27, - 9: There's no denying it. The only question is when. Jack on October 28, - 4: Why don't you simply read the book with a truly open mind?

So, you got a point, or is it "poke the noob day"? Whether that will result in positive change or panic I can't say-a little of both seems likely. But I much prefer this: Swinton outraged his colleagues by replying: Spaceman on October 26, - Ignorant on October 26, - That should conclude all the CPI deflation talk. Of course it won't conclude it, but it should. Prodigal Son on October 26, - A well known political scientist uses game theory to predict there never be a deal on climate change: Recipe for Failure http: Big money will be made with the carbon credit trading scheme-that is the bottom line.

Prodigal Son on October 26, - 1: I suspect you're right Brian. Whether this is enough to meaningfully combat global warming Prodigal Son on October 26, - 4: