Let Us Be Positive

Personally, I think the second part of your statement is a far more worthy pursuit - freedom, safety and reliability. You would have to be actively trying not to see all the GNOME bashing threads since the announcement and about the announcement. But we need 3 different docks and menus, icons everywhere, a minimize button, and tons of other things to poke around with a mouse!!!! You mean the threads where people point out factual issues with GNOME as a software and with its development strategy?

It's a fact there isn't a minimize button by default, but for most its far from an issue and only sought out because people are of the opinion it is needed. If there are any real issues in those threads, they get lost in peoples opinions. Or rather they get ignored because it's easier to acknowledge that the problems are quite real. You can go through just about every project and find bug reports with little chatter from a vocal minority that the devs are not interested in. You're doing it yourself here now. I pointed some of the factual issues about both the GNOME code and development process, and you didn't acknowledge them at all.

I realised a while ago that half the problem with Linux is that there are two or three, counting Corporate groups of users, with completely different desires - the FSF-goal crowd, who want everything Free and everything usable for everyone, and the "power-user crowd" for lack of a better term , who want something that's useful for them and don't necessarily want everything free or usable for mainstream users. If it happens anyway then that's nice, as long as it doesn't take away from the focus of the system as power-user oriented. Half the problem with Linux is that those two groups, together, have made the design a little schizophrenic - some parts are designed with a "learn to use your damn system before you configure this" mentality, whereas others are designed with a "we think that's dumb, and we know better than you , so you can't do it" mentality.

The former is toxic to newbies and the latter is toxic to power-users. Okay, maybe not defeat but it would certainly be good if it somehow happens don't you think? To answer your first question, I'm just replying to the general attitude I have seen in the community. Admittedly, I have displayed some fanboyism too but I have come to understand slowly it's just not doing any good or is right. They've provided good platforms that have helped do a variety of things that Linux has ignored. Let's face it - the competition has pushed open source development forward in a variety of arenas, rather than letting software stagnate and it does happen to even open source - look at what was happening with OpenSSL.

We wouldn't have as polished of a UX because the expectations wouldn't be as high. We'd be stuck with mediocre video editors, audio editors, and a variety of other softwares that had, to be honest, been half assed until other stuff on other platforms showed themselves superior - at least at that time. I don't think defeat is the correct word, but I do think linux is seen as taboo and "only for hackers". I have nothing but love for Ubuntu.

I stopped using Ubuntu around the time Unity came out, but not because of unity, I wanted to hop around the Linux world and the rest is history.

Honestly, with out Ubuntu I would have never have gotten into Linux or the "spark" that turned into a love for computers and technology. Over the last few years I tried it over and over again since there seem to be so many "hardcore fans" of it out there that I thought, "cmon, it must be nice", but I just don't like it at all. I've been using tiling WM. Never wanna go back. I3 or awesome, took me an afternoon to grasp the shortcuts and it's a superior way of computing for me. So much quicker if you multitask. You could say the same thing about Arch. Its fan are really into Arch, but I'm completely indifferent to it.

That's what's great about Linux, it's your choice. I'm so glad I'm not alone. I tried it again a few days ago and hated the fuck out of it. Why does every other DE need a damn start button? Why do they all have to have them though? It seems like more proof that given enough freedom people will usually just imitate each other. So you don't want people to have a launcher? I don't get what the problem is, as long as it can be removed easily. I'm pretty sure it's there because at least some people want it. Taking this argument to its logical conclusion, why does every DE need a clock on a panel?

And is using a screen corner, instead of a button, to show an application dashboard, the pinnacle of innovation? I don't know about you, but I would consider stuff like interactive notifications for screenshots much more innovative. Empty positivity has no value. I guess your software was not among those for which HiDPI support got broken by an intentional and still unfixed regression in GTK just an example. Sounds similar to how the base reason that the Legacy Tray is terrible is literally so that people won't use it.

Not a very good one. I mean, it's a niche-market regression with a workaround. I'm not particularly surprised it's not getting core team attention. I mean, it sucks and all, but that's no more indicative of "harmfulness to linux" than any of Linux 's long-term niche bugs of which there are hundreds. HiDPI isn't niche any more. It covers almost all new high-end computers sold and a lot of mid-range machines. GNOME ought to be able to auto-detect when HiDPI rendering needs to be used, but instead in that bug a maintainer was willfully misconstruing what problem was even being reported.

That bug got core team attention, and that attention was a core team member being an ass. He didn't even try to defend the change that introduced the regression; he just pathetically denied that the regression made anything worse and marked the bug WONTFIX.

Regardless of how important you thing this specific bug's effects are, there's a real problem on display: The bug submitter did everything right. He described what broke, isolated the cause to a specific change commit, documented steps to reproduce and a workaround.

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He provided a real-world example of how the assumptions in the new code were invalid. The developer who introduced the bug rejected the report out of hand, and doubled down in the face of further clarification. It's a trivial fix for which a patch is available. Committing it to the repository would take exactly 5 seconds of a developer time. Purposely introducing regressions in a field where Linux is already dramatically lagging behind is not being harmful? I'd really like to know what you would consider harmful to Linux then.

From the commit, the attempt was to try not to do hacky config magic where it doesn't really belong. It broke things dependent on that magic, but I've been a professional developer too long to feel bad about breaking non-API usage. In fact, the correct answer is that the display server should handle physical questions like DPI, not the desktop manager or toolkit, despite what's said in the Xorg ticket. Any more harmful than any other stupid argumentative churn? That's exactly the fucking point. And yes, I am implying sabotage. This is hardly cross-project.

This is entirely the GNOME developers responsibility, and exactly the kind of attitude that is harmful. Sounds a bit like biting the hand that fed you because they put raisins in your food. You have your history completely backwards. That's not my goal. My goal is for everyone to use open standards and unencumbered specs. That will be the natural result as long as we don't have any one system so dominant that users accept its proprietary and tightly controlled ways as de facto standards. KDE Neon has shown remarkable pace. Its a bit held up on the transition to Wayland, but I bet we'll see a really great release next year.

Just one more step

I've been thinking of installing it but I have Kubuntu really well set up right now and I don't want to mess with it. The main culprit is extensions any , it would be great if there was some way to prevent extensions from constantly increasing ram consumption. I mean, extensibility is a great idea and there are really good extensions but it's not usable. Without extensions the the ram consumption doesn't grow as fast and gnome shell works great. I'd like to know how memory can be a problem if extensions are coded in js.

If there aren't memory leaks I don't know what could be the problem. Also I have a really old computer at home, AMD 64 1st gen. This is the only machine in which I experience high CPU usage so I have disabled animations and done some other tweaks. Resource consumption is now acceptable but still a little higher than the rest of machines.

I guess that old machines aren't as powerful and they lack cpu extensions or gpu capabilities. I don't think gnome devs should care about these machines, they should look forwards not backwards, we are going to eventually replace these machines anyways. I ran early versions of Gnome 3 on an eeepc. It wasn't great but it worked. Unless your hardware is ancient it should not be taxing your CPU much at all. File bugs if it does.

I don't have the solution really, but it seems that we've all been dancing with all the DE's android, IOS et al included and while refinements and features have come a long way, we're still really just doing the same dance. Its nice to see a highly structured permission limited software ecosystem on Linux.

I'd love to see Chrome packaged as a SNAP so I can use it without worrying so much about web intrusion and data harvesting. Or a Netflix snap, so I can watch Netflix using proprietary code that doesn't have free reign of my OS. What I'm more concerned about is the userspace level. Most programs we install without root have full access to the users files and browser data.

Then there is the new push for "sandboxed" apps, such as in SNAPS, in the android app world, and possibly in the microsoft app world. It really is the future. These apps would only have access to their individual root directories and would need permissions for every request outside of that folder. I like this model, and I would really like to see a way to take these DRM plugins and run them in a similar, sandboxed mode. Linux even standardized on RPM format years ago, and Debian and Ubuntu systems support that format with alien.

If you don't like it, well, that's why we all have individual choice. But the things a lot of people complain about have never been a problem. We can't just tell them "Duh, don't you know what an rpm is? I think it wouldn't be any harder to make. Is it good with touch screens? And keyboard shortcuts good? I would like if more applications used headerbars. Keyboard shortcuts are good enough. I imagine that more people would if they knew what they were missing.. I used a lot of extensions. But due to the performance and memory problems extensions create, I've disabled all, looked at the videos describing proper GNOME 3 usage in Help application and tried using it vanilla.

After a month or so I was hooked. Not markole but I'd like to see titlebar integrated appmenus. Otherwise this titlebar is just useless. You don't, that's why they want it as a feature. After that gnome 3 is pretty great tbh.. I don't know why gnome-tweak-tool is a third party application as it seems like some of the really critical changes are hidden otherwise. Things like 'dont suspend when i close my laptop lip' etc. I feel like it should be behind an 'advanced settings' button in the normal settings menu. You can do as you please, of course, but in my experience that causes all kinds of conflicts with shortcut-heavy programs like Blender for example.

Using the Super key for OS-related stuff makes a lot of sense. Ctrl, Shift and Alt should be reserved for programs' internal shortcuts. Please ask your distribution to have it installed by default. I do pretty much all of the things you mentioned, along with Caffeine, Applications menu, removable devices, IP extension, sensors Native Window Placement is pretty awesome.

It's a very subtle difference in the overlay screen, but I've found it's easier to find a window I'm looking for vs. I cannot, in all due consciousness, be optimistic about it, mostly because I don't believe that the GNOME is neither accommodating to divergent design decisions, regardless of merit, nor accepting of any sort of criticism, constructive or otherwise. Also, I don't think Ubuntu will spend that much time and effort on polishing their desktop experience, in general It's no longer their focus, IoT has taken the stage.

So I expect little more than an icon set, a wallpaper and maybe a theme coming from Ubuntu from now on. Imagine you are giving out free cheeseburgers, and hot dog fans keep coming in and shouting at you to add more options and choice to the menu. No, because you're not forcing anybody to eat your cheeseburgers, and you're under no obligation to make hot dogs just because some loud minority demands it.

Especially you're giving away the cheeseburgers for free and aren't making any direct profits off of it. Because I'm not a cunt, and I already have a fire going!! Who cares, just throw some hotdogs in the fire and BAM, everyone is happy!

let us be positive or let's be positive?

Or better yet, let them cook their fucking hotdogs in the fire, because it's not really my fire: I think that at some point a project has to be permeable to outside input Otherwise, you end up with a situation akin to what Canonical was often criticized for And I also think that if the death of Canonical and Unity has taught us anything, let this need for openness and inclusiveness be it.

And that's when you end up with a bloated mess that is confusing to use and ends up pleasing no one. I installed Ubuntu Gnome in a vm to see what I was in for, and overall I like the keyboard driven and simple interface. One thing really irks me though: The header bar and client side decorations and especially the lack of them on applications.

I can see the potential and benefits over the classic titlebar and menu style windows, but from a user experience stand point, I am afraid that i will have to tolerate an inconsistent interface for many years to come if I stay with default Ubuntu, since I dont see the big incentive for non-gnome-related app developers to add this functionality for only the gnome DE or even for Ubuntu.

All in all I find Unitys answer to reducing chrome By hiding the menu in the title bar miles more elegant in a world with multiple desktops, os' and cross platform apps. You often don't really know what you get until you click on them. That's certainly not ideal, because it means you have to learn what they mean, which in turn creates cognitive burden. We "need" to be positive about FOSS, not any individual for-profit corporation and its products. Distributions come and go, in this case we are witnessing Ubuntu shrinking and the founder trying to sell it off.

We don't "need" a brain transplant ignoring the collapse and pretending everything is awesome, that will help nobody. There doesn't seem any urgent need for Ubuntu users to move off it, but if worst comes to worst there is Debian which Ubuntu is based on. I think if anyone deserves positive vibes aimed towards them it is Debian, without which there would be no Ubuntu. I'm actually really excited. We might very well get the most polished desktop environment in the history of Linux.

It's also perfectly in time when Wayland and Steam are out of the oven, further supporting the ensemble. There will be pretty much the same amount of resources as before Canonical laid off their desktop developers: In that recent video interview the non RH guy said it does make some money for RH. Apparently more than the cost. The statement surprises me! The end goal is to defeat MacOS, at least from my perspective.

They are the choice of devops, and that is a space we can win in. Windows is a much tougher sell because it is just a vast eco-system. So yeah its not unrealistic. And the Linux Desktop is only getting better.

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More so now overall with Ubuntu contributing to the same technologies. Besides, the recent disaster that the MacBook Pro is only helps. On the other hand, Dell is filling the high quality developer laptop niche with the XPS 13 quite elegantly. And there is System 76 pushing Ubuntu at every price tag with great support. Those need to be taught. If you outright ignore them you're never be able to teach them. Loads of people used another OS before Linux.

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I really don't see the need to lose your shit over this. I think on the long run though this will be good for Linux as a whole. Having one of the biggest players stop focus their efforts into standard platforms and give to the community instead of trying to reinvent the wheel coming up with their own "special" thing is very positive. We don't need more approaches to how the Linux desktop should be, we need the ones we got to be good!

Thank you OP for your thoughts. I am sure you mean well. I would however like to say that I feel sad due to this new development. See my comment history. I have never commented here before. I just silently used Ubuntu and loved it. Still Ubuntu runs on my servers and our workstations. I feel sad because we have now have less choices than before. Competition is the basis of free and fair economies.

When have monopolies or duopolies ever resulted in customers benefitting. Now cheering the death of Unity and Mir and Bashing Ubuntu when they never even used Ubuntu as a distro is just sad. According to the logic of typical mir basher why are devs working on apt.

They should use their time to make yum better. Why is Solus Linux being developed. Are the devs retarted when they can better improve Debian or Redhat. And please dont give me the multiple display driver fragmentation argument. According to the same logic BSD developers are retarted and wasting their time and effort when they should work on Linux.

And the hate on Unity. As if Ubuntu was bundled exclusively with Unity. Just go use Ubuntu Mate, Gnome etc etc. Seriously trying to cheer something that represents a downward slope in FSM is not something I can agree with. Opensource is about collaborating for better software. I'm mostly sad about the ideas behind the project going away rather than the usually pointed out fact that Gnome can be configured to look and behave like Unity. Sure, but I know that. The look and behavior is not the reason I and I guess others loved Unity though.

It was about their deployment with regards to the vision. Unity works out of the box for newbie users and just as well when you go in a little deep with it's nicely preconfigured shortcuts. That's my take at least. I understand that it is not what many feel outside of Unity. I'm upset that Unity as an idea is no more. But I'm optimistic at the same time that GNOME will only improve further from now on so it should not be too hard for me to blend in: I've been out of the loop on Desktop Ubuntu for a while been running a lot of servers with only console lateley , but when did the tide turn with Unity?

This is a warning, and not before time. These costs need to be passed onto the consumer but the capacity to do this is limited due to a pull-back in consumer demand. Businesses will need to look at operational costs in order to maintain their profit margins. Cutbacks will not exclude jobs and this will have a negative affect on housing demand. The implications of what is occurring is serious and will last longer than most people would hope. It is certainly not the time to be extravagant, but more to be cautious and alert to the opportunities.

South Australia is positioned to suffer least along with Western Australia and Queensland during this period of a downturn. We have new growth industries in Mining, Defence and Education which all have significant multiplier effects on our small economy. The scope of our industries may not be as big as theirs but neither is our economy and therefore the impact should be equivalent. That turnaround can be attributed to the mining boom. They are at the peak of the boom and South Australia is about to start the long haul to the top.

The May Federal Budget announced a massive increase in immigration to ,p. The emphasis will be on qualified and skilled workers to feed into the current under-supply in the construction and mining industries. A significant percentage will be attracted to South Australia and this will add extra demand into our real estate markets Add to this the increasing costs of building and it is clear that property prices must rise and significantly, over time. Successful investing is all to do with timing and it is now the time to be alert to the opportunities and ready to buy.