The Unorthodox Sex Education of Billy Joe

In fact, quite the opposite. Second, that we so easily fall for such tactics. For the past decade, evangelicals have been easy marks, and I hope that people won't fall for these things. For what it's worth, the Bible doesn't tell us how old Mary and Joseph were. The gospels refer to Mary as a "parthenos," which can be translated as "young woman" or "virgin," said the Rev.

James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author of a recent book on the life of Jesus. In biblical art, Joseph is often depicted as elderly and Mary as maidenly, but the purpose is to desexualize their relationship, Martin said, not to normalize liaisons between older men and younger women. Zeigler's comparison is bizarre for another reason, Christians said. Joseph didn't prey on Mary, according to the Bible.

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As the Nativity story recounts every Advent, Jesus was not conceived through relations between Joseph and Mary. In fact, when Joseph heard that Mary was pregnant, he considered divorce, Scripture says, until an angel told him about Jesus' divine father. After that, Joseph remained betrothed to Mary and raised Jesus as a son. Used - Very Good. VG hardbck in VG dustjacket. Tidy copy in tight binding; navy cloth with gilt titles on spine; pages a little yellowed form age on edges, but neatly preserved.

Dust jacket faded on spine; and browned on edges; not price clipped. Cotswold Internet Books Professional seller. Koningen van de bokssport. De geschiedenis van de zwaargewichttitel. John Sullivan - Joe Louis. Joe Lewis - Mohammed Ali. Antiquariaat De Beschte Professional seller. London, Arthur Barker, Name on the title-page. Used, Hardcover in very good condition. PsychoBabel Books Professional seller. Owner Address Label Inked out Ffep. Text Clean, Binding Tight. Vintage Books Professional seller.

Glendale, CA, Privately printed, Softcover in glossy pictorial wraps. First printing of first edition. Warwick Books Professional seller. Aardvark Rare Books Professional seller. London, Alan Cristea Gallery. A Christian can claim to be a Jew if they feel like it. Tony, in this post: Your questions revolve about emergent doctrines the Trinity, the normativity of the Bible, and egalitarian leadership …not relationships and affinities.

The president is not King. The president has to work with congress and the courts. The pace of change on gay marriage and abortion will be determined by the American people, not by the President, and the train has already left the station on both issues. Abortion and growing acceptance of gay marriage will not change with Romney in office. What will change will be dramatic changes to government programs that even conservative families rely on, continued uncertainly about healthcare, enormous profits for the very wealthy, and many other policy statements that Romney and his team have made very clear.

Those who tell you to vote for Romney because of social issues have been sold a bill of goods, and they are trying to pass them on to you too, because they need the money that is currently used to support the programs your family uses, to support their own vision of American government. No President, by them-self, can change government on behalf what people believe. To claim otherwise is political rhetoric that has been around since George Washington. Billy Graham, from the beginning of his ministry, was willing to blur lines for the sake of a very focused message. All that matters is Jesus.

He called everyone into a relationship with Jesus. So he crossed denominational boundaries and even was willing to include Catholics who Fundamentalists saw as arch-enemies. So Billy got in trouble for that, for not respecting the established boundaries. He also was very highly political. He was exceedingly anti-Communist and really in a lot of ways exemplified the Evangelical love affair with Republicans.

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He was Christian Right before there was a Christian Right, and was a political evangelist when Fundamentalists still very much thought any involvement in the world was forsaking the gospel. Indeed, one of the key markers between Fundamentalists and Evangelism in the earlier days 40s and 50s and early 60s was Billy Graham. True Fundamentalists despised him for selling out. Meanwhile, Graham represented a more open and public message, focused on Jesus but inviting to all who would come to the table.

So, too was Fuller Seminary shaped, and it is interesting how much Graham here resonates with a lot of what Rich Mouw long time president of Fuller has said about Mormons. I agree with Tony that Mormons are not Christians in any way that has meaning for the word Christian.

Calling Mormons Christian is a bit like saying that Baptists are Jewish, as they believe in the Old Testament law and prophets and the promised Messiah. Question for all of you: Do you believe Jesus came to set up the religion we now call Christianity? Your first paragraph is a caricature. Of course we can disagree. But, many Mormons were born into and grew up in a Mormon household — just like Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, etc.

My problem is not primarily with people who change their minds, but with the attitude with which people hold their beliefs. We cannot avoid the former, but the latter, to me, reveals a lot about ones problematic psychological state. As Martin Marty pointed out, the religious can be divided between the mean and the non-mean. Many leaders within that network have prided themselves on being proud. There has been some public apologies about this. But, overall, there is a lot of meanness. When an idea is presented as the absolute, objective, indubitable truth and then magically repealed at a later date, I, personally, have a problem taking anything they say seriously.

As Bill Maher just said last week, if God is on the side of conservative Christians, why are they wrong so often? Sadly, though, rather than doing something that I see as a relatively positive thing — more closely associating with Mormons rather than labeling them outsiders — Acts 29 as a whole continues to move further to the right.

Yes, we are dealing in characterless to make a point. But I think my first paragraph is a pretty good summary of official Mormon doctrine. Please correct me if I am wrong. Again, I agree with you that individuals may differ from their official church position. But that does not remove the fact that churches have official positions, and official LDS doctrine is irrevocably incompatible with orthodox Christian doctrine, which is irrevocably incompatible with Jewish doctrine, and so on.

Nothing bad about that, they are all great religions. Of course, a follower of a Universalist tradition would argue, similar to your argument I suppose, that at a certain level, Mormons, Jews and Christians are all the same thing. That is fine, and I respect the Unilateralist point of view. But that does not remove my point of view as a Christian. I am a Christian, and that means something. I can clearly define that meaning to you, and I can clearly explain how that meaning is irrevocably incompatible with Mormon doctrine.

No disrespect to anyone, they are just different. To pretend that Mormonism and Christianity do not hold fundamentally different doctrines strikes me as very dishonest, if that position comes from an adherent to either one of those great churches. I am not saying that all religions are saying the same thing. I think there are great similarities — which, from my perspective, is more important than their differences. Those are not always the same people. There is diversity within each cultural identifier.

At a certain point, a negative stereotype of any religion becomes a form of racism — i. Those kinds of statements are meaningless, unhelpful, and potentially dangerous. I refuse to allow you to monopolize that word. In my view, calling Mormon non-Christian does no label Mormons as outsiders. It labels them as non-Christian. In our current, post-Christian world, Mormons and Christians are both outsiders, and they can work together toward a positive outcome. For every social conservative who wants to partner with Mitt Romney for positive change, there is a social liberal who wants to partner with Harry Reid who is Mormon too, in case anyone forgot.

We can honestly and respectfully call Mormons non-Christian even while we all pull together and work for positive change. I think even most Mormons would agree with that. The role of religion in politics, after all, is primarily a distractor, and the right-wing is fully aware of that fact. The American people spending all this energy fretting about Mormonism is exactly what people in power want us to do, rather than talk about healthcare or tax policy.

Maybe, instead of a week of debating Mormonism before the election, a debate about clear policy differences between Romney and Obama would be more constructive. He is a shape shifter, continually changing his positions on issues to suit whatever audience he is addressing. Yes, most politicians do this to some degree, but he is a world champ! In other contexts, his changing positions would be called what they are: No, if I a Mormon claims he or she is a Christian, great!

Maybe I would feel differently if I had some kind of vested interest in some orthodox Christian institution. If a Mormon wants to have a conversation about beliefs, we can go through historical theology together and whatever else. And an outsider looking at the church would clearly recognize that it is non-Christian church, and the adherents to that church would be, doctrinally, non-Christian as well. Do you claim a cultural identity for yourself? If so, would you feel any urge to clarify the definition of your identity, if someone who an adheres to obviously different cultural identity tried to claim the same cultural identity as you?

Cultural identity is very powerful and very meaningful. And that can be done without any disrespect to the other culture. If anything I have said is disrespectful, I apologize profusely. You are not a Christian. Because…blah blah blah Mormon: I am a Christian. Is it magic fairy dust from some planet?

We can debate those and many other good questions forever. But it is the definition of core Christian doctrine. Some guys got together, probably had too much to drink, probably got in a bunch of fights and maybe even a few people got killed, and that is what they ended up with. It has been the definition of The Christian Church since then. Want to be a Christian? Are you interested in spiritual issues and think Jesus is really cool? It is some other cool, whacked out church, and I wish you well and look forward to worshiping and working together with you.

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But it is not a Christian church. Christian doctrine is a cultural identity that has deep meaning for many people. Yes, there are differences. But, you are equating someone who is a cultural Christian which, I would argue, is most people who use that label with someone who agrees with some form of Christian doctrine. Clarifying differences between specific ideas and specific times or places of specific definitions of orthodoxy is a different conversation than Deciding who is or is not a Christian — or which group is or is not Christian.

His habit of constantly lying through his big grin is quite annoying, and is why I could never vote for him without having an extra line to define which Mitt Romney I am voting for. But besides that annoying trait which is common of several other politicians, he is a good man. That is the difference between you and me. I have a vested interest in this thing called Christianity. That said, I may require more than usual drinking tonight to relieve the pressure on my forehead from banging it against a wall.

I guess, for me, the version of Christianity that I navigate toward sees the idea of seeing Christianity in that kind of way vested interest: Now if we can only get a gay person to run as a republican presidential candidate, then the conservatives will become Gay affirming…. How did Unitarians make the list of cults? There were Mormon kids, teachers, business people, etc. Younger Mormons express disbelief when told that statement. But my point has been, people can call themselves whatever they want, but that does not remove the fact that things have definitions.

Citizenship has a definition. A French person, who has a strong affinity for things American, may call them self an American, they may tell everyone they are American, I can have them over for lunch and entertain then as an American, but they still may not meet the definition of U. It is a simple statement of fact. Orthodox Christianity has a definition. Starting around with the Nicene Creed. Hotly debated since then, to be sure, even to this day. No unlike immigration policy I suppose. But the fact that it is debated, and some Americans even disagree with it, does not mean it has a widely-held definition.

I read this post, then the comments. Got confused and had to read the post again. Thought that kept running through my mind: These are important critiques to make of our streams in the midst of election season. It certainly started before Christ. Bingo on the Trinity thing. You are the one who is falsely equating orthodox Christianity with Christianity. By doing so, you are, in effect, saying that millions of people are not actually Christians.

Any of you ever open the Book of Mormon? And what harm would that cause? It is nothing personal. They are just not part of a Christian church. When you then fight with one another over who is or is not a Christian, then everyone will know that you are my disciples. Any interest beyond any other church on the planet.

He did call us to be disciples. And while this was not true in the past, today, whether a church is Christian or non-Christian does not speak to the validity of the church or its work. Whether a church is Christian or non-Christian is now simple shorthand to understand what its core beliefs are. Nothing more, nothing less. It has happened several times in the past years: I have been greatly helped by BG and the Association in years past, especially as a young Christian, one might say that he was my hero of sorts until after seminary.

I live in Asheville, NC. Some, like Steve Knight, have questioned whether Billy is being played like a puppet by son and heir, Franklin, in these, his last days…. I agree with you Curtis, that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible seemed thoroughly uninterested in setting up an institution.

Those who continue to wade or swim in the waters of institutional Christian religion miss the critical point made by their namesake: I disagree that Mormons are not Christians. If a religious group is a sect, it is usually a sect of a larger religious idea or origin. They are sects in the same way that Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Armenian Churches are sects. The same way that Reform, Orthodox, Hasidic, are sects of Judaism and their aims and practices are very very different.

Mormons, as I understand it, still consider themselves Christians in a sense, and I think they fit in the same models as I outlined above. As to Rev Billy Graham, it is sad that it took a political need for him to except Mormons less than evil.

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I was LDS for my first 2 decades. They are not Polytheists belief in or worship of more than one god, multiples at the same time. Major differences in those terms. In Mormonism, christ is just one god amongst many, ruling his own world. He is the god of this world, Earth.

He is a god in an endless group of gods. A council of gods centered on the planet Kolob. The issue is stated. Mormons can become gods and goddesses through a process called The Plan of Exaltation. Then these new gods inhabit there own worlds or planets. They then begin to pro-create, populate, govern, rule over this new world. It varies depending on where you stand.

Mormonism is a Cult. Mormonism has been, is currently, always will be, a Cult. I love Billy Graham. My vote has nothing to do with faith or ideologies. So that rules out Obama. I love them, as does God. Again, Mormons are not Christians. God bless their souls. The advantage the Mormon Church and its candidate offer to sweeten the deal for evangelicals: It was actually a label which the disciples which termed themselves saints or disciples were given by others as a term of derision — but they adopted it gladly.

So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. We can, however, say whether or not the claims of a group match with the gospel message. LDS is considered a cult for a number of reasons, most notably that they have accepted like the catholic church additional authorities as equal, even superior to, the word of God.

Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. And the first phrase means it is a gospel of inferior quality that cannot save souls , not a gospel of the same kind that opens a path from God to man.

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I could go on here, by I will summarize with this: The Bible rests on the premise that it is the very word of God, that Jesus is the Way, the The truth, and the Life, and that the only way to God the Father is through the blood of Jesus Christ the Son. I have studied the Bible, and particularly the four gospels, all my life. I have made many inquiries into his life, his teachings, his disciples and his followers. But such arguments are nonsense. I say let us all come to the Christ as his sheep, and let the Spirit bring us to one accord, not the vain imaginations of men. Wow, thanks for sharing this.

I wholeheartedly agree with the implications of your last statement…not to be alarmist, but to affirm that I believe in this election many Christians are being deceived. Someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior and Redeemer. Believes in his teachings, and lives by his example. Anybody that believes in Christ is a Christian. Mormons are not any different than you and I. I am not a Mormon but i know a lot of them and they are some of the best people I know. How much more obvious does it need to be that they ARE in fact Christians.

If you are a Christian, which i am as well, then you should enjoy the fact that their are so many other Christ loving Christians aka mormons out their in this world. This sums up a very sad and ugly period in Christianity: The divine reckoning that many pastors crone for the president and his policies and the state of the nation, should there be one, will be for them and those others who betrayed the message of Christ in exchange for the silver of worldliness.

The record is clear: Joseph Smith was a convicted con artist, accomplished in spiritual scams, motivated by money, power, and the pursuit of women. Money, power, and a deep disregard for women have always been at the heart of the Mormon church, along with a willingness to say whatever is needed to maintain that power and control. I find it difficult to understand how any evangelical would endorse Romney without first trying to understand the culture that shaped him. If he is aware, how do we escape the conclusion that he is a party to this fraud.

If he is not aware that it is a fraud, amidst glaringly unmistakable evidence. All religions are cults. The word comes from the Greek for the practices of a religion. What matters is how dangerous a given cult is. Latter-Day Saints have restored 1st century Christianity.