For the Beauty of the Earth: Women, Sacramentality, and Justice (Madeleva Lecture in Spirituality)

If Zagano hopes to make any point at all, she must show us some evidence that St. John Paul the Great did not intend for his clear explanation to be definitive. If Zagano replies that she is only investigating the open notion of female ordained deacons — fine then. Put the work out there, and answer the critics. Maybe it will amount to something.

Catherine of Siena, Fr. There are other papal teachings that have been changed; slavery, usury, earth centric solar system; and the clearest response to Christ only choosing men as apostles is that, yes, but he also only chose Jews. Our Church is ancient, deep, and broad, and in its very universality, can contain all manner of the faithful, save all stand on the ancient creed of the apostles:.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. A man must be marked with the sign of the Covenant to be called to Orders. What Christ Himself established, and papal teachings are two different things. Rejecting heliocentric cosmology in favor of geocentric does not come with an anathema.

These silly mind games are the work of elitist theologians — that is, persons with too much learning and not enough wisdom or sense of the faithful.

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For example — It is irrelevant that Church leaders had disputes and conniptions over cosmology. The Holy Spirit only guides us infallibly with regard to faith and morals. Cosmology is a matter of scientists, and it is the duty and pleasure of scientists to sort it out. The Church developed the Scientific Method for them, and we are done. Likewise, it is not relevant that Christ picked only Jews to be His Apostles. Those same Apostles, the authors of the New Testament, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit ordained gentile men to be priests and bishops.

Ordination of gentiles was fitting, because it was necessary to fulfill the command to make disciples of all nations. You need something to evidence that the Holy Spirit forgot to tell the Apostles at Pentecost, and that He means to correct that now. Elisabeth, Thank you for engaging with Prof Zagano! Keep the Faith, in charity and courage, and one day, perhaps, she also will thank you. Her default is to accuse the person of slander and libel and sometimes to ridicule the comment on her Facebook page as if she were the only person that truly understands.

She has all her sycophants cheering on her Facebook page. In that movie, pay attention to the character of Dathan, who technically is a Hebrew himself, but who incurs ire amongst his own people because of his actions relative to the Egyptians. In much the same way, the apostle Matthew was, in many ways, only tacitly Jewish, reviled and loathed by many of his own people because of his status as tax collector for the Roman Empire. Yet Christ still picked him for an apostle and he proceeded to write a Gospel account. Yet several of his letters make up a decent portion of the New Testament.

Maybe we ought to admit that 20th or 21st century radical feminist views are not sound criteria for selecting Catholic priests. Deacons are not priests. Ordaining women to the diaconate is currently open to discussion in the Catholic Church although ordaining women to the priesthood is not. I am distressed that Elizabeth and so many commenters fail to make this distinction.

Zagano is a careful and precise scholar. If you wish to discuss her research, please read her books and discuss her conclusions knowledgeably. Kathryn, if you read my post above you will see I say: I do predict that the Church is going to sooner or later state more clearly that there have never been and cannot be any sacramental women deacons. Deacons are not priests, but all priests also have the order of deacon just as all bishops are priests—these things are not truly separate phenomena, there is a single sacrament for making deacons, priests, and bishops: No — because of the unity of the sacrament of orders, which has been underlined in the deliberations of the Theological Commission; it cannot be measured with a different yardstick.

Then it would be a real discrimination of woman if she is considered as apt for the diaconate, but not for the presbyterate or episcopacy. The unity of the sacrament would be torn at its root if, the diaconate as ministry of service, was opposed to the presbyterate as ministry of government, and from this would be deduced that woman, as opposed to man, has a greater affinity to serve and because of this would be apt for the diaconate but not for the presbyterate.

However, the apostolic ministry all together is a service in the three degrees in which it is exercised. The Church does not ordain women, not because they are lacking some spiritual gift or natural talent, but because — as in the sacrament of marriage — the sexual difference and of the relation between man and woman contains in itself a symbolism that presents and represents in itself a prior condition to express the salvific dimension of the relation of Christ and the Church.

For the Beauty of the Earth: Women, Sacramentality, and Justice (Madeleva Lecture in Spirituality)

If the deacon, with the bishop and presbyter, starting from the radical unity of the three degrees of the orders, acts from Christ, head and Spouse of the Church, in favor of the Church, it is obvious that only a man can represent this relation of Christ with the Church. You indicated that you tried to read and listen to the course materials and found them too dense and difficult. I agree; it was sometimes tedious work. But those of us who persevered have gained an insight into what the church has done in the past and what possiblities exist for the future.

We are discussing that within the course and with other Catholics, including bishops, priests, and laity, and it is an exciting topic. By the way, your representation of Sr. Zagano posted the interview with Dr. Butler not to imply endorsement but because they disagree on certain points.

Scholarly debate is part of the process of discernment on this topic. You seem sceptical of theologians, and I appreciate that you desire us to remain faithful to our roots. However, theologians and historians have a vital role in the church to help the entire body understand and evaluate our past and the choices for our future.

You keep harping on Dr. Yet a careful scholar like Dr. If you read the gospel accounts of the Last Supper it does not look like a present-day ordination. Theological reflection over the generations produced the concepts and understandings of the sacraments which we use today. It is not disrespectful to say that doctrines and practices in the church developed over time.

In fact it is crucial to understand these evolutions if we are to understand how to be faithful today. I think it needs to be kept in mind when having a conversation with those who hold positions like those of presented that there is a methodological move involved in their historical reconstructions.

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This is the basically a priori assumption that if a word does not exist the reality it names does not exist…. The problem with this hermeneutic is that it denies realities if there is no word for them…. In fact, as I explained, no one I know has ever heard of a Catholic denying that. That is in fact the clear teaching of Trent.

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I see her not wanting to discuss objectively the conferral of the priesthood of Jesus Christ on the apostles, and her not wanting to discuss the fact that a form of ceremony ie, laying on of hands, or a marriage ceremony does not always equal objective conferral of a sacrament if the other conditions are lacking. In both these unwillingnesses on her part, I see an avoidance of looking at the objective reality of the sacramental grace, something that cannot be perceived by historical investigation alone.

She wants to investigate it via history and how early Christian practices appear to her; objective consideration of the grace of the sacrament even when my statements were entirely in keeping with Catholic teaching, was apparently not acceptable to her. Yes, Elizabeth, we must communicate via words and words have limitations in all situations, especially when we are dealing with the awesomeness of God.

Zagano, her motivations, her goals, her ideas. Having just spent four weeks probing Dr. Words are limited, but they are what we have, and if you wish to discuss Dr. Zagano and her work, you should do so carefully and respectfully, attempting to understand the precision of her writing. Otherwise your opinions are based on conjecture. Yes, we must communicate via words and that is why there is no wisdom in denying basic statements of Catholic belief like Jesus conferring Holy Orders on the Apostles.

Professor Zagano and I obviously disagree about the matter of whether women can be sacramentally ordained as deacons. This is not some kind of a misunderstanding, we do simply, honestly disagree, and have each given reasons. Cam, a member of the International Theological Commission, produced a document in which is included in one of the books Dr. Zagano urged you to read for the course.

You are certainly allowed to disagree with Dr. Zagano about whether women should be ordained as deacons, although until you read the research I am not sure what you are basing your opinion upon. We should, however, disagree with the civility and respect owed to each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. I urge you to remove your posts about Dr. Zagano from your web-site.

Your descriptions of her beliefs and research are inaccurate and inflammatory, and have caused many people to comment in ignorant and unseemly ways. There are so many edifying articles and photos to post, as you do very beautifully elsewhere on your site. The posts about Dr. Zagano are hostile in tone and disrespectful to a woman who has been working in theology since you were in diapers.

Those who disagree with you are not your enemies, especially iwthin the Church. Oh, and drop the argument about Holy Orders and the Last Supper unless you are willing to enroll in a theology course about that!! Even basic, clearly legitimate expressions of Catholic belief such as are necessary to make in catechesis and evangelization ministries I am involved in are tenaciously opposed and I am attacked for ignorance for insisting upon the legitimacy of such statements, and told to take a theology course. Participants are drawing their own conclusions and acting appropriately.

Please, Elizabeth, refrain from assuming that you know what somebody else thinks or feels beyond what is expressed. For myself, I can assure you that I am not upset with you. I admire your zeal; you remind me somewhat of myself at an earlier age. However, I am concerned that you are not careful and respectful of others in your zeal to promote the truth as you see it. I suspect that Dr. Zagano banned you from the Discussion Board after your unfortunate, and frankly thoughtless, reply to the wife of the deacon expressing pain that she could not exercize her own training and gifts in the way her husband could.

Pain in the Body of Christ, like pain in the human body, is a symptom of injury, danger or disease. The pain that many women feel upon being excluded from many forms of ministry in the church demands serious attention. We may disagree on how to address this pain, but certainly judging someone harshly for her emotions is not a constructive approach.

Dear Kathryn, no, she cited a reason for banning me which was that I had not viewed all the materials! It was also immediately after I offered by email to send her a copy of my book which I have done. I wanted to comfort this lady, so you certainly misconstrue my intentions. Make no mistake, promotion of ordaining women as deacons is harming women and causing needless pain.

I rest my case as to the advocacy training nature of the course. Once I actually began reading the work of women theologians—most of which are included in the reference pages available online at Amazon of my book, Women in the Church: Remember, remember, as Hinsdale reminds us: David, another woman theologian mentioned here who disagrees with Zagano is far more cogent, and far more highly honored in the Church— Sister Sara Butler , a seminary professor, consultor to the USCCB doctrine committee, and member of the International Theological Commission.

In my Sinsinawa book a highlight is the chapter on a woman theologian one of the early wave of highly trained women theologians named Sister Francis Assisi Loughery who became my hero because she spoke up consistently and charitably for Catholic beliefs. I recently was able to get ahold of her doctoral dissertation on the Eucharist to read, and it is just fantastic. Women can certainly contribute to theology. There are also some women who are not such excellent theologians. Feminism is obviously extremely distorting. You have had a different experience than me if you have only encountered reasonable writings of Phyllis Zagano.

Yes, sometimes she has worthwhile things to say. But I have often encountered columns by Zagano that are corrosive feminist screeds, for instance her latest one. Pope Francis cracks a joke he had to KNOW would hit a nerve with feminists hostile to expressions of sexual complementarity , and she reacts with, well, hostility. She found them so convincing, she accepted them, and underwent an intellectual conversion.

I remember her as a soft spoken, very gracious person. Sara was at that time involved in the drafting of the U.

For the Beauty of the Earth: Women, Sacramentality, and Justice - Susan A. Ross - Google Книги

Her predecessor on the committee drafting this pastoral had signed an ad in the New York Times in which seemed to imply support for abortion. As a result of this, this Sister now deceased was asked to step down. I believe she nominated Sara to take her place. I once asked Sara about ordination of deaconesses, and her answer was that it was a question of sacramental ordination.

She indicated that she thought it was not. Also, how the Coptic Church of Egypt has deaconesses-but they are not clerics. While doing doctoral studies, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that she had been appointed by Benedict XVI to the International Theological Commission. Once in class, by way of comparison, she asked us to think of an act in the Catholic Church which was reserved to women alone. The answer is the consecration of a virgin.

She was trying to get us to see that the sexes complement one another without being identical.

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Jesus was incarnated as a man. We also discussed Jesus being crucified as a man. Were Jesus incarnated as a woman, then Jesus would have been crucified as a woman. Women were crucified face down, not face up.

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So, the body language would have been of a woman with Her back towards those She came to save. It has been twenty years, and I still try and teach the way Sister Sara did, but it is difficult. Elizabeth has her own blog, Laetificat Madison. Carrie rated it it was amazing May 18, Belva Rae rated it really liked it Aug 31, Barbara rated it liked it Nov 19, Kelly Marie rated it it was ok Jan 12, Robyn Henderson-Espinoza marked it as to-read Oct 05, Sarah marked it as to-read Mar 18, Rick Edwards marked it as to-read Jul 24, Alwen marked it as to-read Jul 26, Laura Zane marked it as to-read Dec 01, Sara marked it as to-read Mar 30, Kristy Harding added it Sep 16, Margaret marked it as to-read Feb 06, Margaret added it May 26, Courtney marked it as to-read Sep 06, Aase Maren marked it as to-read Jan 28, Liz marked it as to-read Jul 10, Karlin Labenske marked it as to-read Sep 04, Stephen added it Jan 26, Jasmine marked it as to-read May 26, Lauren marked it as to-read Jun 05, Anna marked it as to-read Dec 05,