Druidic Perspicacity.

I just want druids because I think the idea of them are cool, and hopefully their natural affinity aspect is implemented well. I don't care if their DPS is the suxxorZ! I just like druids. Any problem with that? Totally failed in judging the class by roles it can take. Nuking is never possible with core material in pnp. The Druid is best in supporting and shaping, it is overpowered if you do not set limits to its available animals and feats.

The more animal options you a GM provide the more poowerful he gets. The elemental form is the most inbalanced feature and has to be balanced. Very strong Druids can even buff there companion to an op combatant and for avoiding this you just set limitations to available animals. All in all you have! Yes, a Druid can be very powerful and easily overpowered in pnp but everything stands and falls with options provided.

A sure upcoming problem is again the gap between melee classes and caster classes in power. A Druid can theoretically shape into a Lion or Tiger at lvl. That alone is incredibly strong, more if you consider pounce Ex as well. So, the Druid is obviously a constant walk on the edge of balance. The final conclusion, that people only want to play an op class anyway is not quite accurate. Shaping and morphing belongs to fantasy ever since and is a major subject to fantasy worlds. So is the magic itself. And ever since magic and all morphers are powerful and more powerful than any mundane being.

This is good, this is intended by default in a fantasy world. The heroic deeds are created by the overcoming of those most powerful threats. Accept the challenge and stop whining. People who are crying about the theoretical power of a Druid should wait till a release. The pnp Druid is more powerful because you could get Improved Grab and thus could neutralize enemy casters quickly. This is not possible in DDO. So, in the end you are reduced to light cc. But with every specialization on one thing you will sacrifice another since you need many feats to build one or the other thing.

People like you are funny, they belong to same people who cried about the op. DDO realtime combat changes the values of many things effectively and things like grapple which are op. Real flying ability and unlimitted tactical 3D movement are not available in DDO, so, everything that you could profit from being an Eagle or similar does not help you in DDO. With the limitations of DDO content a Druid class will be balanced. But well, since the FvS is established Thanks for the great laugh - that was funny! Are you going to spam every thread http: Furthermore I have read a lot more nonsensical or rude posts that get neither neg rep or reported.

How could you possibly get more Druid like than as a tree man? Take Deinonychus dinosaur http: It can charge and rip apart stuff. And the thing is in Core Flesharker dinosaur is even more crazy. It was nerfed a bit, but it was far from fixed. I didn't quote second part of your post, but They could have pounce, excelent AC thanks to too many self-buffs, amazing animal companion, and backup spellcasting.

DMM Cleric could compete, but Cleric were usually better off with archery. As an aside note, too bad dino forms probably won't gonna cut it in DDO. Those Tribe Called Zerg guys and gals would have dinogasm. Or, perhaps we will have dinos? I guess one could always hope. TOUGH were getting them anyways na na na na na: BUT FEAR NOT Im sure they will be OP at first just like everything they release live and then they will beat it into submission with a nerf bat and take away everything that made people want to buy them and made them fun fun to play in the first place.

QQ Join my request for dino forms! Gah, ninjaed by zerg. Well, to fill this post with something partially useful, trample http: Triceratops was very fun in PnP Hasn't anyone thought that the reason Druids aren't here yet is because Turbine wants to rework them to be DDO-balanced? Also, you're wrong, OP.

I just want Druids because I think shapeshifting would be fun. Just like using bows would be fun if I wanted to be a Ranger. Nevermind that bows aren't AS potent and frequently used as one might think when they see the name. Don't forget, Rangers can melle, cast, buff and heal as well. Why couldn't Druids do it without being OP? According to rumors, Druids aren't here because of technical issues.

Like, really bad issues with engine. When Druids do get released, expect multi-GB download patch. A perfect example, really. Same hp and ac as the drood minus his equipment, plus natural armor of form , attack number limited to what his bab can support 1 , at his normal attack bonus. AND he has to have seen it before upclose and personal. The animal companion is always good, but once they cut the loophole down about ever-increasing size due to increasing hp, then it never got more than one size category larger than normal anyway. Hard to compete with a fully-equipped warrior or barb at any rate, although an argument can be made under the right conditions.

You use multiple attacks with BAB for weapons, or more specifically, when you don't have multiple natural attacks. A creature with natural attacks can use ALL of these attacks as a full round action, with the 2nd and everyone after having a -5 to attack not 0, -5, , etc, it was 0, -5, -5, -5 etc. Unless you also have the feat Multiattack, in which case its only minus If you use this however, high BAB never gives you extra attacks.

So you can turn into a raptor or tiger and get a whole bunch of attacks, even with low BAB, but of course without multiattack your attack bonus will be hurting. In PnP, a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none class can do quite well. Extremely well, in fact.

However, in DDO, due to mudflation of enemy stats, saves, hps, and so on, specialization is the key. Being good at melee, heals, nuking, and with a great pet is simply not going to be possible. You're assuming they'll be fantastic in all 4, which is not going to happen. Ask any Bard, or some upcoming Artificers, how speccing for every class ability is working out.

Wait, you mean they Nerfed Wings to make way for Druids using animal forms?!?!?!!!!!!!! Now it all makes sense. I'm okay with this lol. You retain forms full attack BAB has nothing to do with this and Pounce special quality. So, yes, you can charge and rip stuff apart - it's like Lion totem Barbarian, just as one of features of a Druid. And Lion totem barb is one of best ways to do melee damage in game.

And you can pile ton of Druid self-buffs on top of it. And you have Companion I've checked my copy of Rules compendium, and only thing it does is collect various errata on wildshape. It's still extremly powerful - as long as there are good monsters, Wild shape will be unbalanced. I mean, if you play core-only, there is no other way to even get pounce outside of wild shape.

Guess which class can easily self-buff to meaningful AC?

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It's a freakin' Class feature. Just comparing it to entire another class http: And fleshraker dinosaur also avilable as wild shape can charge, full attack, trip, pin and poison Just pile HD on top of it. Again, as long as there are crazy good monsters, Companion will be unbalanced.

If you don't like dinosaurs, leopard is also good in core; along with other bear-type grapple ; cat-type charge , big-animal-type trample and flying-type good AC bonuses forms - in core, or outside of it. Dinos are just THE wildshape forms. Also, damn you, OP. Now I want druid really bad in DDO. As said - the big benefit of shapechanging, or wildshape - is roleplaying and tactical options - which will not exist in DDO in any way. Fly doesnt even work after all.

Druids get some offensive spells sure - arcanes get a LOT of offensive spells - that have to be optimized, and many spells do not work on many things - so having a couple damage spells doesnt make a class 'nuke as well as a sorc'. As said yes they can heal, but get less spells than clerics - so are not going to get the extra heal spells at every level - they will have to select them manually at the price of other useful spells. Who knows how wildshape is going to be implemented. So many other things have already been nurfed compared to pnp classes there is no real expectation to think it will ever be overpowered - or even work for the first 2 months after they are released in Yes they are powerful in pnp - because they have options and roleplaying and tactical abilities they are clearly not going to have in DDO - if they ever reach DDO.

That's not one class. At any rate, this PnP discussions are starting to bore me My bet would be Dec Dude you need to relax bro. Everyone said that artificer would break the game to and after playing it I can tell you it that while it will change the game, it wont break it.

Same with the druid, it will change the game, it will not break it and for the record, yes I want druid cause I want to play something stupid OP, sue me. It would kill the druid most likely. I suppose if there's someone arround to throw a Ressurrection spell a valid tactic. Either the DM wouldn't allow it because there's no room, or it would kill the druid for the same reason. Not a very promising start regarding the subject of druids. PnP guys like myself want druids because druid is a core class to DnD 3rd edition. And we want DnD. Thats why we Play DnD Online.

No, I dont want a colossal animal form more than I want a ring of 3 wishes or a spider legs spell. The way druid is going to be implemented, regarding mechanics and whatnot are of less interest than its flavor to the DnD Legacy. Now a good 2 words of advice. Get a group of friends and try DnD. Not that 4th edition sad boardgame.

If you wanna understand what fellows like me feel, play the 3rd or 3. Druids in tabletop dnd games meet untimely death five times as often as any other class combined. They fly, they shapeshift and have useful summons. All of these abilities are broken, OP and complicated rulewise. Hence most DMs kill them at the first opportunity. Since these abilities come to play at cca level 5, only a handful makes even to lvl4. They need to be nerfed for DDO. Never quote Dnd 4. Beside DDo is based on 3. If your pnp campaign goes crazy because of imbalance then most of the time the DM is to be blamed for lack of competence in judging game mechanics.

And those DMs you describe have no clue about leading an adventure at all. If you are a good GM, then you know how to balance stuff.

Intransigent Nostalgia

So it is with the devs. You are either melee or summoner or supporter, you cannot do all at the same time with equal powerlevel. Most of the animal types you guys bring up do not exist in DDO. Dinosaurs None of the special attacks mentioned exist. There is no role playing aspect. Even if they allowed Handwraps there would be no Monk Ki attacks to beef up the damage. I suppose ToD Rings would help Yes, they can self buff, and self heal. Yes Bears are strong and have a lot of HP. PnP guys like myself want druids because druid is a core race to DnD 3rd edition.

Druid is a class. Now, there is druid-like race called shifter, hopefully we'll get them too once devs figure out shapeshifting. They are also core in Eberron If your pnp campaign goes crazy because of imbalance then most of the time the DM is to be blamed for lack of competence in judging game mechanics. The ability of DM to balance the game has nothing to do with quality of rules of the game itself.

Most DMs I know that 'balance' stuff are heavy-handed morons that couldn't make game with 5 NPC-class warriors balanced. Hell, if you claim DM can balance game, go play F. That being said, claws in DDO should deal same damage as greensteel - wielded by melee FvS or something similar IMO, they actually should deal more, but druid shouldn't have dots, so total damage is a bit less than melee FvS dotting stuff - like I mentioned earlier. Also, there should be dinosaurs and stuff in DDO too. Just no black panthers, please reason being certain dark elf and his animal companion.

But, yeah, dinos rock, bears rock, tigers rock, We need more animals if there will be druids. They will eat me if I don't correct that mistake. So, crocodiles rock too. The stuff he quoted about druids and classes there is NOT 4e. I'm not sure which but it sounds like 1e or 2e. That being said, 4e does have some good points Especially from a DM standpoint.

The system is rather different on a number of points though. Quite frankly its still not for some people, they just won't like it. WotC has killed it for me and various others by making those they managed to hang onto through the change lose faith in the product by drowning it in errata. If there were that many problems with it, you don't release it yet. Why should I buy any of the books if half the stuff written in them is going to be wrong by the end of the year?

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Because in eberron, dinosaurs are noted in a number of places in the setting. I am old, I know the original classes to be fighter, cleric, mage, and rogue circa rules. Now that I think about it, level cap was about 10, I haven't cracked open the books to check that closely. Someone else mentioned it in this thread, it is the limitations on the game engine that is limiting druids from being added. Artificers, for the most part, are using quite a bit that already exists. You live in your own world full of rainbows and unicorns don't you. Since U9 all casters have become grossly overpowered and DDO classes have become grossly unbalanced.

And, that trend is continuing with artificers. Druid make a natural fit to DDO with the current state of the game. The quality of rules is of no matter here. If you are calling the Druid imbalanced then because of assuming no limitations in any regards. Anyway, you obviously do not know good DMs. I said, good DMs can balance the game and are competent.

This, of course, is not given in every group. But this does not change the truth of my statement. A Druid has access to features player classes and races are not supposed to have, normally. But frankly most of those features are not used in DDO. Further, DDO does not use round based combat so all advantages from Pounce e. What is left is amount of attacks per routine and damage. Another limitation is the list of summons in according spells. Then, what else does remain on given spell lists of the divine classes?

The common damage spells you see on arcanes' spell lists. Left spells only ork in natural environments or cannot be used in DDO, like Animate xyz. With given feat progression you cannot fight as good as a main melee AND have enough damage with those 2 or 3 spells. You will rank in FvS powerlevel, using some aoe spells while meleeing and kiting but never ever will you be the matchwinner in every group. Thanks for the correction. I already posted about balance of DDO in this thread, dammit: If you need DM to balance the game, what's the point of rules then?

Here is limitus test for your "good" DM: How would he react if wizard and fighter were brougt to same table? Would he ban Artificer because it can maximise scrolls? I personally don't believe balancing the game is DM's responsibilty, but responsibilty of entire group. Entire group needs to know rules well to play the game together. I am the said bad DM, a long time one. Druid is always the summoner and either supporter or melee, equally good at either spell Spikes alone for melee. I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class!

Murder and reroll is much better. It lets the players know that death is serious and possible and also removes the class, that has best of arcane and divine magics plus broken spells like Creeping Cold, direwolf summons, active item melds and other things..

Intransigent Nostalgia by Giuseppe Catanzariti (Paperback) - Lulu

I say NO to druids. Or at least, they should be nerfed to the point of uselessness and then released for 10k TPs. You must be young. You don't remember when the rule was -- these are guidelines, your DM is the final authority. You see, the DM IS the rules. For those of us able to think for ourselves that is still how it is. The "rulebook" never trumps the DM. D The problem with that is that a single person can, and almost always does, have misconceptions about real power level of some options. The entire point of rules is that you have team of knowledgable people writing the rules to avoid subjective interpretations.

Why 'industry experts' fail so horribly, I could never understand look at 3E; look at 4E; now look at Pathfinder - seen anything that is reasonably balanced, fun and enticing at the same time? Also, yes, I consider myself to be young. Early twenties - that is young, right? Also, for Heaven's sake, stop making theese silly claims, everyone.

Take a look at the fanbase that created the Exploiter build, a build designed to be able to pretty much solo most of DDO. Basically, putting druids into DDO would create far too much nerdrage and hassle for turbine to deal with to be worth it in the long run, and whilst I don't agree with some of their more business minded decisions, I'm sure the people behind DDO are not stupid.

Even if they are implemented in DDO, I'd have trouble seeing how the neutral outlook of druids would fit into the fluff around Stormreach. If they do it well, I will gladly pay to help compensate for said nerdrage. He meant the level 9 spell not wildshape But natural spell and wild shape, along with the amount of monsters already in the game and the possiblity to change into them Even more with potency items and enhancement lines Cure critical wounds is NOT a most powerful spell Now at least they feel that bluebars have to manage their sp Just as it was in NWN, maybe more so.

Secondly, they will decide or choose for us what forms they are willing to make available to druid wildshape at each level just as the summon creature spells in DDO are limited to what they have available and are willing to make available to us. Third, it is highly unlikely that any but the most powerful forms will even approach Greensteel sillyness in weapon power, and those forms would not be available at the same levels as greensteel ie In conclusion druid will likely be about as powerful as a cleric or warforged wizard, a spellcasting class capable of self healing.

Keep in mind they won't have the the spell points of a sorc or fvs or the bonus spellcasting feats of a wizard. They'll likely be feat-starved and feel strapped spending their ability points as well. There was a time where reason was used to interpret things into categories like ''rules as intended'' analogy: So, the DM selects suitable rules and game mechanics out of the fabulous DnD box-system for classes, rules, features etc. Therefor he has to have some knowledge about the game mechanics and he for sure has to restrict the character options to be able to: I do not reject the potential of a Druid in pnp but this potential is not the same as the adaptatioon and implementation into DDO.

With the possible builds around all 3. In fact, without putting reason into game rules or using RAI the game starts getting ridiculous, like the pun pun build or the Warhulk build which is throwing mountains Face it, the only thing of matter will be and is the final release and DDO concept of the Druid. There is no reason whining about the class right now. That directed at me? If you didn't realise by now, I'm excitedly pro-Druid. On an unrelated note, I'm starting to recall Octopus Tree The spell tree shape is going to be so overpowered!!!! I mean the party will be fighting some monsters and suddenly, "BAM!!!

I'm a tree now! Then they'll just shrug it off and kill the party, but I won't be dead because I'll be a freaking tree! Unlimited power right there. Octopus tree was actually one of crazy plant-type monsters from Fiend Folio yeah It moved slow on land, and you could interpret it breathed water since it was quite unclear ; but it had, like, 8 improved grab attacks and Swallow whole. Fun if not terribly poweful well, it was powerful in certain situations.

Same book also had crazy stuff like Yellow Musk Creeper. All in all, too obscure for DDO, unfortunately. Also, what would you say if I mentioned Dire Tortoise? It's quite more, err Just for reference I was using your post as the trigger for the thoughts I then posted. In particular I was referring to the actual spell, called "Tree Shape. Yeah - turning into hill-sized tortoise would be fun even if it was most underpowered thing in the world.

Not that I actually expect hill-sized tortoises in DDO. We'll get car-sized, at most. I never have been a big pnp player but I think that there is a way to introduce the druids into the game without them being 'overpowered'. I hate to say it but perhaps styling access to their spell lists should be done sort of how WoW has done with their druids. Obviously instead of skill trees DDO has enhancements.

If the devs made the pre's grant access to particular spells it could be very balanced and successful. Invest heavy into 1 for bonuses while taking a hit on another. This wouldn't be op if presented as such. In fact, I would be willing to bet that even if by taking one particular pre neutered the other two pre lines, people would still love the class. All I would foresee is the complaints of having to get even more specialized gear for that class as opposed to others. I honestly believe by presenting this way it would be balanced and yet still be a big hit amungst players.: I believe folks tend to forget that pnp is more or less a guideline than the hard and fast rules for DDO.

Ill be back with popcorn one of the best posts i've seen yet. As long as they include the spells Bramables, Thorns, and Shillelagh, who needs to shapeshft on a Druid? In PnP that was good times lol. Bah, in that case druid is just another divine caster - very lame. Have nothing against Shilleagh, Brambles and Thorns, though. Should be a build option preferrably, better damage than forms, since you're dumping wis. That would be a terrible idea, given how slow Turbine is at implementing PrE's.

WHo wants to wait another couple years for their Druid to be able to do anything! Yeah, given that we already have divine classes that work similarily to druid, I'd rather have full-power druids. I'd love to have Dire Bear form or pet but that won't happen, just because Barbs get unemployed then ;.

I do not expect an overflow of possible forms the devs might focus just on summon monster spell list. A druid can't wildshape into most of the things on the summon monster list. Except for outsiders and creatures too big or too many HD, what can't they turn into? So several people seem to think that Druids in DDO will be overpowered Will they have the natural spell feat? How much DPS will claws do? Show me the numbers and how you got them. We already have those spells. Plus ship buffs that no one ever leaves home without. What buffs make Druids overpowered?

Only two seem to be any good right now. FireWall and Finger of Death. But befoe we get too much into spells He only gets seven! Just like a Sorc. How many Sorcs have enough feats to do melee "AND" cast offensively. Will we have Animal Companions? But unlike Artificers they won't get mech-magic-techno upgrades. How about melee then. Well we already talked about animal form. But what about weapons? That won't gimp your spell casting anyway. How many Devils will your non spell pen FoD go off on? How high is your Str, Con Dex if you maxed Wisdom?

And if you didn't max Wisdom Healing specced Druids will also be weak melee combatants IMO. Maybe take advantage of a Con boost in animal form. So I ask you Just what about Druids will be over powered in DDO? Oh they will be popular Lots of flavor possibilities. Lots of multi-classed possibilities But deep multiclassing will hurt them I am sure.

And add little except a coolness factor IMO. I am certain that whatever DDO version we get Not really sure of why I dear to post here, but Druids in DDO are quite difficult to balance. With a spellcasting ability quite similar to clerics, and the potential to turn into a very suitable melee dps thanks to shapeshifting, they're almost unlimited in a DDO game.

Every druid will have the same stats build: Con and Wis maximized. Why should you dare about str or dex if you will use those of your wild form?

Druidic Perspicacity. (Paperback)

How can designers prevent druids from just spam their spells faster than any other caster could dare, and then turn into a melee as good as any fighter or barbarian? If they get natural spell, then will just will have to save some sps to heal themselves. But, if shapeshifting doesn't make them valid melee dps, or if their spellcasting is nerfed, people will say things like: Please note that you will be liable for damages including costs and attorneys' fees if you materially misrepresent that the material is infringing your copyright.

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The Druid Grove

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